Creed
I believe that there is something much more beyond what I can see, feel, hear, taste, smell and touch. There is an essence that flows around us, between us and through us all. There is a definite reason why I can perceive an intangible something called beauty and why I feel an intangible thing called love for all things beautiful. There is a reason why some people who are not physically attractive are the most beautiful things I can think of. There is something that I am made of that is beyond the sum of my physical parts; sometimes we call it soul, sometimes we call it heart.
I believe that there is something that made all of this world and the cosmos, something that made me and placed me among it all. This something must be good, for why else would I be? Why else would you be? Everything of beauty, every pleasure, every vibrant and soft color, every sweet sound, every sad tear is because of this ‘thing’. This thing is big yet it can be small. I call this thing God.
I do not believe that God has ever been mean, angry, ugly, hateful, vengeful, jealous or cruel. I think that mankind becomes those things when he sets himself apart from God. I think mankind attributes those negative qualities to God by projecting his own character onto something he cannot comprehend. Often this is done to justify those things man does in his own interest, at the expense of others. He often blames God, or at least credits Him mysteriously, for the evil and suffering of this world. Although mankind is responsible for most of the world’s pain and suffering, sometimes….things….just….happen.
I believe that God loves us all, even those of us named Hitler, Stalin, Billy Graham, Ted Bundy, Jerry Falwell, Hillary Clinton, George Bush, Mother Theresa, Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. He knows that not many (if any) of us have the purity of heart and the presence of mind to see that we need to be ‘the least of these’ on earth, but instead we will waste most of our lives either ‘making something of ourselves’ or lamenting our failures. So God sent his son, someone most like him, to this planet to show us a way – the only Way – back to him. To repent, to change our way of thinking, to break our hardened hearts, teaching us how to “die” to our old ways of death and to be “reborn” to a new way of life, through following the Way of Jesus. Often this way is again revealed to us by those who have little time for religion.
I do not believe that God condemns to hell those who choose not to follow Jesus. I do not believe that there is a hell. God would not create a place of eternal suffering, of torment and pain, of never ending punishment. By God’s own standards this would be cruel and unmerciful. Even if we could choose this destination (as some would say is the case) He would not allow it. Would you allow it of your own child? Are you more merciful than God? Our finite and limited means of perceiving God has us holding Him accountable to our legalistic standards of ‘justice’.
I do not believe that the Bible is the “infallible and inerrant word of God”. I believe it was written by men (and perhaps women) who knew God and it is about how they responded to God and how at times God responded to them. I believe that knowing the historical context of the stories in the Bible is crucial to understanding them – even though the Gospels often can stand on their merits alone. I do not believe that the entire Bible is factual – some of it is, and some of it is not. I do not always know what is fact and what is metaphor but it matters little to me because I believe that all of the Bible is true. I believe it is inspired by God, in that it was written by those who at times were filled with God’s Spirit. Perhaps, in a sense, it is all metaphorical , but metaphor is not less than fact- it is more than fact. I believe that the Bible works best for me in my quest for God because of my cultural, ethnic and linguistic background. Although it may sound contradictory to what I have just said, I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
I believe that God reveals Himself to all people on this planet. Although I personally relate well to God as my Father I don’t believe that God is male or female – that would be absurd. Instead I believe that, metaphorically speaking, God’s character combines the best of those qualities that we perceive as being ‘different’ among the sexes. I believe that all major religions (those that have stood the test of time) engage God in a sacred manner. These would include not only Christians but Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintu, as well as the myriad of Native American and aboriginal belief systems. Just like Christians, many of these religious adherents have gone astray and have stepped well off of the ‘path’ that their faith once laid out. Just as one should not judge all Christians by the horrible things that have been done in the name of Christ one should not judge the other religions by those members who have turned from God in the name of God. The way of all ‘true’ religions has one thing in common – love, and from love we get peace, mercy, forgiveness, hope, charity – all things positive -all things of beauty-all things of God.
I believe that although there are many similarities among the different religions, it usually makes more sense for a U.S.American of European descent to seek God through the Christian tradition because of the cultural and linguistic familiarities that already exist. A Christian pilgrim once asked the Dalai Lama if she should convert to Buddhism and he replied; No! Go back and work on being a better Christian. It may be more enriching for someone to continue practicing their current faith rather than convert to one they are unfamiliar with. If you want water it makes more sense to dig one well deeper rather than to dig many shallow ones.
I believe that many people have become disenchanted with religion, because so many who speak for their respective belief systems are very far ‘off the path’ and are misrepresenting God. Some of these discouraged people have gone looking for God in different directions, experimenting with old ‘pagan’ religions or ‘new age’ philosophies. I believe that these people are earnestly seeking God and trying to find Him (or Her) where they can, because the established religions place obstacles in their path, leaving them with few choices. Like most of us, they are on a journey towards the sacred, their paths taking different courses. Many others have become agnostic or atheistic. They may not enjoy all of the blessings of those who intentionally walk with God, but they may enjoy more blessings than many of those who ‘think’ they walk with God.
I believe that there are people who claim to have no faith in God yet they are more closely following His Way than many priests, pastors and bishops. Then there are those who are so self-absorbed, so intent on personal gratification and gain no matter what the cost, they have little time for God, even though they may believe in Him. But they too, likely have ‘reasons’ for being as they are. Perhaps they were once victims of bad religious atitudes. God still loves them all. We are not to judge. We must remember who we are and where we come from, that we are no better than those who may offend us. As disciples, we are to be there as needed, to help them find God in the best way we know of. For me, that is in Christ, Jesus.
I believe that it is easier to stay on the path, to follow God’s way, by practicing your faith on a daily basis. Some of these practices are study, prayer and meditation and especially putting others before yourself. There is no one right way to do these things and probably no wrong way, as long as it is heartfelt and sincere. We all have different talents and abilities and, though individually we cannot save the world, we can work within our own little part of it. When we do anything in anticipation of divinely bestowed ‘just rewards’ then we have stepped off the path, bogging ourselves down in the mire of legalistic and meaningless ritual. As we practice loving each other we will grow in our love of God and we will find ourselves yearning to serve Him, by showing kindness, forgiveness, mercy and love to his children, our brothers and sisters. This is the Kingdom of God.
I believe that religious legalism and fundamentalism are the greatest impediments to the spreading God’s good news. It is their strict emphasis on the outward forms a religion takes in seeking the sacred, along with their rigid insistence that there is no other way to God, which has resulted in much of the world’s misery. It is religious fundamentalism of all sorts that has divided God’s children, leading them to turn against each other, often violently. This does not mean that I believe fundamentalists and legalists to be ‘bad’ people, that they have less than the very best intentions at heart, or that they are remotely aware of the consequences of their actions, but the end results are consistently negative.
I believe that the non-Biblical and unwarranted emphasis on heaven and hell prevalent among Christians up to this day exists because the early Church wedded itself to the powers that be. When the Church became one with the ruling powers and adopted the conventional wisdom of its time then God’s message of social justice was sacrificed for an often selfish fixation upon individual salvation. If one did not obey the ruling authorities, if one dared to question the Church, then one would be threatened with damnation. This fixation on personal salvation allows most Christians to ignore the least of those among us. Though times may have improved, there is still much to repent of. Recently Bishop Camara, the ‘Red Bishop’ of Brazil, said; “When I gave to the poor they called me a saint. When I questioned why there were so many poor, they called me a communist.”
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that Jesus is God’s Word made flesh and I believe that He died for our sin, the sin of putting ourselves before God. He came to save us from ourselves and I believe He lives among us to this day. I am dead without Him and can only live through Him. Some day we will see Him again, in His glory, as well as ours, when we are united with the Father. I believe that devotion to His teachings is The Way to realize the joy of God’s promise right now and right here. I believe that there is nothing more important in any person’s life than to know God’s love, share God’s love with others and to give that love back to God.
On this day and at this time, this is what I believe. I promise to respect what you believe.
A dios,
Christian Beyer
Crikey, this is actually a really refreshing look at religion, God and spirituality.
I must admit some of it is a little, ‘out there’ and much of what you believe is a kind of pick and mix of what Christianity is all about, but I still like it and I think we need more of this kind of attitude out there.
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. I’m sorry if my thoughts were ‘out there’ as one of the problems I see with much of religion is that is where we keep God, not down here, where we live.
As far as being a ‘pick and mix’ of Christianity…well I would suggest that is pretty much what we have today in what we call the Church. There are one or two things everyone feels is essential and as for the rest… it’s open season. Ergo 10,000 ‘Christian’ denominations and sub-denominations within many of them. The thing is, I don’t profess to be ‘right’ or have any of the ‘answers’. But it works for me.
Since I wrote this post (nearly a year ago) I have even been ‘picking’ a little bit outside of the Christian faith and seeing how that might mix in as well. After all, if there is one God then he must be everyone’s God.
Wow! Your honesty is refreshing, it really is refreshing.
It is true that Christians tend to pick what they like and reject what they don’t.
Bruce
I really admire that you have chosen to put your idea out for all to see. good on you
I’m surprised that you don’t believe in Hell when the Bible spends so much time talking about it. Surely if it does not exist then the passages in the Bible (including where Jesus talks about it) would be more than a simple error or story. More like out right lies. Also if there is no Hell then we have nothing to worry about why even bother with Religion at all?
Well Ross, I think that your assertion that the ‘bible spends so much time talking about it” is questionable. Check out my post on “Who Are These Damn People” for my Reader’s Digest assessment of this doctrine. I also recommend Brian McLaren’s “The Last Word and the Word After That” as well as the literature that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have on this subject. (Yes, I know of their doctrinal differences with the majority of Christianity but one thing they do very well is in Biblical research. They have tons of supportable evidence to debunk this post- Biblical concept).
Not lies per se, probably just mistakes, although it is obvious that some translators have had other agendas in mind when choosing specific words, perhaps consciously, perhaps not.
Most reasons believing in ‘religion’ are usually not very good ones, unless that reason also involves a yearning to be in tune with God and God’s purpose for us. It seems that the best avenue is paved with love, not fear.
Thanks for reading and joining in.
Great minds can include you among them. What a beautiful creed.
Christian,
I don’t line up with all of your points, but am delighted that you are a believer who is not afraid to ask the hard questions, grapple with the bigness of God, and wrestle to a stronger faith. We need more of this kind of conversation going on. It seems to me that the church has forgotten it’s very strong foundation (what is true, not necessarily what is tradition) and has hemmed itself into a too small place. Jesus on earth was/did many things, but “conservative” (as in “marked by moderation or caution”) was not the adjective in anyone’s mind.
I just found you this morning–will likely be a frequent visitor. Glad you’re here.
Anita
You ladies are too, kind. I am blushing. But thank you. Meanwhile, I have visited both of your sites and recommend that anyone reading this should spend some time there. Their links are on the blog roll; “Allgnostic” and “Edge of the Porch”. It is well worth it checking them both out.
Outstanding blog. I’ve been very pleased to blogroll you.
Christian, I have to confess to being quite confused by your points. On one hand you claim to believe that Jesus died for our sins, but then you seem to minimize the authority of scripture at best and out right eject the authority of scripture at worst. If you are in such a twilight state over the authority of scripture, how is it possible you accept the death of Jesus for our sins as authoratative?
Sadly, I have seen many who embrace “postmodernist” thought and dispose of all that was good about scholasticism and modernity, things like absolute truth and systematic theology. I certainly am not in favor of deconstructing the word of God into metaphors promoting a mushy doctrine that make us feel good about our sinful natures and removes the necessity of repentance in order to stand before a Holy God.
Welcome, Jim.
Repentance is essential to salvation. What you think of as repentance and salvation are probably not quite the same thing as what I think they are. No matter what someone ’says’ on this subject, what is in their heart is entirely unique and personal. What is consistent and dependable is Christ Jesus.
John 4:21-24
I look forward to hearing more from you.
Thank you for the welcome!
I agree repentance is essential to salvation. You could be right that we don’t think of the two as the same. Perhaps you could share what you mean by the two? That actually sounds like a good post to write!
I also agree that Christ Jesus is what is dependable, but we caome to a saving faith in Christ through his word. There is no substitute. If we could examine the lint in our belly buttons for information about Jesus, we wouldn’t need the word of God!
What is in our hearts is unique and personal, but God sees all of it. Nothing is hidden from Him.
So, having written all of that I still am confused about what it is you have said in your creed above. I am sure you will be able to help, though.
The lint in the belly button thing – that really is about TM and not religion. I think that there is great validity in many of the world’s great religions (great as in standing the test of time – Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Judaism). That’s not to say that there may not be validity in other faiths as well, but some are pretty sketchy right off the bat.
Christianity (for the most part, it has been drastically altered over the years) speaks to me. If I was Indian then perhaps Hinduism would speak to me. In both faiths I feel that there are elements of the truth -God’s law that is written on the hearts of the pagans that Paul talks of in Romans.
Can Jesus, God’s son and his Word, speak only to me from my vantage point within western Christendom? I think that limits God’s power. Even CS Lewis felt that there were pagans who more closely followed (or resembled) Jesus than many Christians.
We hold so many biblical ‘truths’ as valid. But how many are truly biblical. Case in point – a little research will reveal that the doctrine of hell is not biblical at all – that through various translations as well as the absorption of pagan customs (Greek, Babylonian, German) we have this doctrine. The Jews have never found any allusion to hell in their study of the Talmud and Torah. Something bad happens when we reject God. Is it a place where we suffer for all eternity?
There is no substitute for Christ, the anointed one, savior and Messiah. We know him as Jesus, the man. Others may know him through different ways. The consistency is brokenness, love, repentance, forgiveness and joy.
But hey, I could be wrong. What’s your take?
Christian, thank you for your honesty. I am happy that Christianity “speaks to you”, but I would be a bit more happier if you had written that you came to a saving knowledge of Jesus because of the work of the Holy Spirit in your life convicting you of you sins.
You see, it is certainly he popular thing to do to give nods to the world religions and, following perhaps Joseph Cambell, focus on what we all have in common. It is certainly another thing, and not quite popular, to see oneself as a terrible sinner in need of God’s forgiveness in the presence of a being who will disperse justice as it should be given. You know, you state you can’t believe in a god who would “condemn people to hell”. You don’t know your bible… God doesn’t condemn anyone to hell… you condemn yourself to hell once you reject the gospel. Yes, that is a hard thing for many to accept because they think of their views of justice as being the best. However, it is God’s view of justice that has the ulitimate “say”. He provided the Door, He provided the gift of faith, we have only to accept His gift and walk across the threshhold into a true saving faith. Jesus said that He is the way to the Father. There is no other way.
Oh, and I can’t spell at all!
Oh, but I did and I have. I am transformed, a new creation in Christ, born again. I can do nothing without Jesus and through Jesus I can do all things.
If you read more of what I have written you will see that not long ago you and I would have been on the exact same line in the same paragraph on the same page.
Yes I believe that we ‘damn’ ourselves, that God only wishes for all to be saved. I am no universalist. I just do not believe that God created a place called hell. I used to. But when Jesus tells his disciples, if you have seen me then you have seen the father….I saw the light. The light that has come into this world.
Look, if God is omnipresent, everywhere, and hell is the absence of his presence then when you die the second death you must be…nowhere.
Christian, you aren’t attempting to use propositional logic to reason your way with me are you?
If God is omnipresent, then his presence is also in hell. We would simply be misunderstanding what it means to stand in his presence without sin. Yes?
I really don’t want to convince you that there is a real hell, though. Ultimately, we will all find out, and God knows. That is good enough for me. However, the Bible clearly speaks of one. To say there isn’t a hell is to say the Bible is incorrect. We don’t have to get into descriptions of hell, but the Bible does describe it as a “lake of fire”. Argue as we may, perhaps it is a firey lake of red roses, or a firey lake of chocolate and coffee, the Bible does clearly speak of the Lake of Fire and it doesn’t sound pretty!
I am simply happy that I am not God and have to judge. I can only speak of the Gospel and what Jesus has done for me.
Oh, and Christian, I invite you and your friends to come on over to my place at http://jpierce.wordpress.com/ and challenge my views.
Everyone is welcome.
Ahh, you may live to regret that invitation.
If I were to toss you into a burning lake, what do you suppose would happen to you? It wouldn’t be nice but it wouldn’t last too terribly long, either. Anyway, there is an older post that addresses this;
http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2006/09/06/who-are-all-those-damn-people/
Christian, I won’t regret it. I am sure.
Also, I don’t make decisions as to what consists of heaven or hell. Isn’t it something how we like to dream up our heaven, but once talk of hell arrives we are running for cover and denying that God could punish evil? It is hubris to think we could question the creator’s designs for His creation.
Beautiful Creed Big C – we are in very close agreement
I do not call myself a Christian – too many negatives in there for me but i see and agree with almost all you have writtten here ( How then can i not be Christian?? you will learn – or maybe I will?
)
One post said your creed was ‘out there’. It is away from the ‘mainstream’ but it is by no means ‘out there’ from truth. Remember that the bible we read today in English is a result of the ‘perfect’ Christians who once put to death people who claimed the earth was not the centre of the Universe and was flat. That it was not a big round ball and did not revolve around the Sun.
The mainstream agreed with them , not Galileo or Copernicus. Following the mainstream don’t always make you ‘right’
But you get that obviously.
I have to ask you a question though… you view God as being only ‘good’ clearly,
‘I do not believe that God has ever been mean, angry, ugly, hateful, vengeful, jealous or cruel. I think that mankind becomes those things when he sets himself apart from God. I think mankind attributes those negative qualities to God by projecting his own character onto something he cannot comprehend.’
Is that a ‘balanced’ view? or, just as man projects his Negative traits upon God’s Image do we not also project our own Positive traits on HIM sometimes (most times)?
We seem to NEED to create an ‘image’ of God in our Own image so as to better relate to Him to more clearly delineate what ‘He’ is like and what we should draw to and also to avoid in our own lives.
The Bible makes it clear that God is BEYOND good and evil and that we should be more as he is, not as we think He should be.
I don’t know if you have heard of or read ‘The Field’ by Lynne McTaggart ( see also: http://www.livingthefield.com) but it gives a very interesting take on that which you define in your creed as God and how it is all-pervasive.
As for Jim and his comments – i ( and i suspect also you) need him to keep us on the right track and making us better understand our own position and why others don’t get it quite the way we do. I won’t argue with him here ( I’ll visit his site for that! :->) But i will close with my belief that ‘I am the Way’ is perhaps one of the most important but misinterpreted statements in Literature.
Long may you Blog : )
P.S. I seem to be the only one to detect that there apppears to be a line or two missing in your creed – in the para immediately above the barbed wire image?
P.P.S as for atheistperspective’s about ‘pick and mix’ – does he not understand that is the kind of Christianity most buy’? The big difference between your beliefs is that they buy the mix they didn’t put any real input into chooosing as you have – that was done for them by ‘organised’ religious scholars millenia ago. ( But not concurrent with Christ’s ministry on Earth).
Some Catholic bibles have 70 ( a very significant number) of Biblical books while the protestant ones generally have 56 (39 OT and 27 NT) books.
‘In There’ Christians should ask themselves Who picked and mixed your bag of goodies and why they chose some and chucked out others?? Is this the equivalent of ‘Flat Earth’ you’re getting ’sold’?
Thanks, lovewillbringustogether, I have developed some type of problem with my photos on this post. I have recovered the missing text but I am still struggling with the picture placement.
I don’t see where the Bible says that God is beyond good and evil. I think many of us have different definitions of what good and evil are. John’s Gospel summed it up – God is love. God cannot be hate.
I see God as the source of all that is good – which is essentially everything that he has created until his creatures have messed with it. An analogy I like (and it is biblical) is that God is like an intense light source. Some things may block that light, usually man made things. Often we will turn away from the light and focus on twilight and darkness – sin in it’s varying degrees. If evil is the absence of light, and God is light, then God cannot be part of the darkness.
Forgive me, the Bible may not make it clear that God is beyond good and evil. ( I believe He is but that is another matter).
I was refering to Genesis 2 and 3. where God commands Man not to ‘eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil’ for in the day thou eatest of thou shalt surely die. (i.e. become ‘mortal’).
Gen 3 goes on to say Man becomes like Us (God) in knowing of both good and evil. I propose that God knowing both does not mean he is limited to either one or the other or both – he is beyond man’s concepts of ‘good’ and of ‘evil.
I do not believe that Evil is the opposite of Love or that IF: God IS Love. THEN: He cannot also be ‘evil’ is a ‘true’ logical statement.
God is Light, but God also exists in the absence of Light. God is ALL (and as importantly, God is NOT!) – God goes way beyond mere mortal understanding – are you with me here?
God ‘made the Angel Lucifer’ knowing in advancethat he would ‘fall’ and Man along with him. It is a question of ‘balance’. God made His Son knowing that he would suffer and die on Earth. hy did he not choose to make His Son perfectly good and Immortal so that he would walk amongst us forever – what better remider of God’s power could there be than that?
What makes God clearer? Making a Son who lives for 33 years or so, dies on the cross and is never seen by mortal eyes in the last 1900 years, or making a Son who walks perpetually with us in our own mortal lives? I know which i’d find harder to argue with.
In order to ‘distinguish’ (not extinguish
) ourselves we must become ’separate’ from (forget) God in order that we then are able to freely return to Him with ’self-awareness’. You can’t know what you are in a sensory world without experiencing what you are ‘not’. In this sense ‘evil’ is a necessary ‘gift’ from, and of, God.
It is a kind of relativity – hot cannot know itself as hot without cold to compare itself to; good cannot know itself as good without evil to compare itself to either.
I see no conflict with God being the source of all that is good (of ALL that IS) and of God also being the ’source’ of all that is evil also. What value is there in ‘limiting’ your God so? Can you only be God-like by being only ‘good’ (as you define it?) and are you imposing your beliefs upon God that he must do likewise?
I see your point, and it works if we are both seeing God in the same way.
In my paradigam ( and I think the Bible supports this if you choose not to take these pertinent scripturres literally) God cannot be evil any more than light can be dark. If he is ‘light’ then ‘dark’ is where he is not – light cannot exist in the absence of light. Doesn’t that sound logical to you?
In other words – evil exists where God’s presence is deliberately avoided or obscured. There may be no time or place where God is completely obscured- hence the different ‘degrees’ of evil. Total absence of God would be – ‘no place’, nothingnesse. In my view this is what we have come to call damnation. Annhilation.
I take to an open view of theology. I don’t see God as planning everyhting in advance, down to the minutest detail. He must leave room for our free will and the consequences. Besides, I don’t see the ‘future’ as being a ‘real’ thing but merely an abstract construction that helps us to place ourselves intellectually wihin history. The future does not exist so God, even though omniscent, cannot ’see’ it. He can shape it, and he can ‘predict’ it but he cannot see what is not there. He can count the hairs on your head but he cannot count the hairs in Santa’s beard.
That being the case, then I don’t see an argument for or against God’s decisions to ‘make’ Lucifer or to ‘make’ a situation where man will not fall. When he gave us the choice to accept or deny him he almost made it inevitable that we should ‘fall’. I don’t think there could be a better situation, if we are to be truly free beings.
To make an immortal Son who would bypass the Cross would to not expose to the true meaning of Love – sacrifice, forgiveness, redemption, mercy, compassion….Besides, we do see his Son as being immortal and living with us to this day.
I agree that redemption is necessary for most, if not all many, to come to an understanding of their place with God. Is it possible that some may never have stepped away, turned their backs and focused on the darkness. Scripture says that this describes Jesus, who was without sin.
For God to be the source of evil is illogical to me. It is also something truly horrible to contemplate.
I think this world made a terrible mistake when it stopped teaching logic to schoolchildren!
I don’t want to limit God in ANY way but for the purpose of our discussion, and our peace of mind, let’s pretend for the moment that God only does what is ‘logical’ and we would do well to do try to do likewise – fairy nuff?
If you believe that God is onmiscient then you have to believe that there is nowhere that God is ‘Not’ – surely logic dictates that something that is everywhere cannot be ‘absent’ from anywhere or anything that is ‘real’ (lets agree to avoid the unreal for the moment and see where it gets us – hopefully both on the same page is my intent
)
Describing what God IS is dangerous as that limits God, and frankly ,I don’t believe we humans should ever do that. So saying God is Light then prevents God from being where there is no light – see the problem?
Consider ‘empty space’ ,say a cubic kilometer of it – there is no detectable matter inside it and so in theory there is no light in it or coming from it; light has to be ‘emitted’ by some kind of matter – it is effectively ‘darkness’. OK?
Now consider that that cubic kilometer of space is directly between us on Earth and the nearest Galaxy. We can see straight through it like there is nothing there to the distant mass of stars. The Light from those stars passes THROUGH the cubic kilometer of space, hence even though we just agreed there is nothing there but darkness, for some brief period of time there must be light ‘in’ it as we see the light coming from the Galaxy ‘through’ that space.
What was darkness – ‘contains’ the Light.
Stretch the analogy and God exists IN ‘evil’ – he is only distinguishable from it if we choose to falsely make God the opposite of something instead of containing the whole spectrum of everything. Good and evil are opposing ends of a spectrum – limiting God to only one part of it is just plain wrong to me – a human idea of what God should be instead of recognising that God is far more than we can perceive or comprehend.
Want another perspective? Let God be represented by a sine wave, ‘traveling’ in one direction (a limit but play along for a sec) if that wave is ‘reversed’ in the same medium and meets the Original wave coming the other way a ’standing wave’ is generated that completely cancels each other out so that no part of the medium ‘moves’.(assuming no other waves are present)
To external appearances there are no waves present but in fact there are two – each moving the medium’s particles in exactly opposing motions – suddenly stop one wave and the other instantly appears again – it was always there but we were prevented from detecting it.
Just because we humans cannot seem to detect something does not mean the thing is not actually still there – agreed?
Our human senses are not omniscient.
God is Omnipresent is my belief, therefore anything you can think of such as ‘evil’ ‘contains’ some ‘part’ of God.
Have i erred in my logic here? If so, can you show me where?
As for your last sentence above – which is the more horrible? Having God present with you in ‘evil’ ( you do do some evil things at times surely?) or having places where God does not exist and so cannot help ’save’ you from your actions?
I WISH logic was taught more, and from a VERY early age. : -)
Ahh, no analogy is perfect. The idea of God as light works for me (and apparently the writers of scripture) in that we are not talking about merely physical properties but God’s character as well.
In John’s gospel he is referred to as Love as well as the Word. The idea of the Word implies ’spokeness’ – some sort of oral emanation. This implies that Jesus emanates from something that ’spoke’ Him. Hardly a perfect analogy when taken too literally but a very effective metaphor when taken in consideration of the creation accounts as well as other early scriptures.
If God is love then God cannot be hate. John does not say that God is both love and hate, just Love. Love’s presence obviates hate just as light will ‘destroy’ the darkness. God’s is not present in evil- God’s presence eliminates evil. Our problem is when we see harsh realities that to us may seem to be ‘evil’, such as found in certain elements of nature. God is not the opposite of evil- that is a form of dualism. Sun light may exist in a vacuum but it does not exist in the dark spaces it has passed through. When passing through it illuminates the space that was once dark – eliminating the dark while illuminating the space.
God can’t reside someplace he has destroyed, can he? He cannot make a rock so big that he himself cannot lift it, right?
God’s light destroys the evil darkness. We can protect the darkness by shielding it from God’s light, he allows us this freedom. He certainly could eliminate all obstacles to the light, but then why go to the Cross?
And sure, God is always with me, no matter how ‘evil’ I may be. Much of what we think of as evil always has some element of goodness present – the ability to breath, think, mobility – these are all intrinsically good qualities. None of us are completely ‘evil’. Even Hitler was good to his dog.
God is not like light in that light is not a person who pledges to love us and to be faithful to us.
I was just reading something about Plato’s analogy of light and shadow playing on the cave’s wall and it suggested a refinement to this analogy.
Not all light is visible to us – there are parts of the spectrum that include infra red and ultra violet as well as other radiations. Throughout the universe there are elements of light even when they are not visible. The total absence of this radiation would be (I think) Absolute Zero. (?)
I don’t think we have ever witnessed total depravity – the total absence of God’s presence. I think this theological Absolute Zero would be what many call Hell. But ‘nothing’ exists at Absolute Zero.
I hope that our discussions bring new light, that we may not have had much personal experience in before, to each of us (and therefore bring us (all) a little closer together
)
I acknowledge that your past has given you a greater understanding of what being Christian is than Mine may have. I believe ( rightly or wrongly) that my past has given me a greater understanding of science and the Universe than pehaps yours has you.
A bit of what you just wrote i tended to see as containing basic error, as all of us are capable of.
One example: you said John did not say God was both Love and Hate implying that John would support your arguement that God is only Love. Logically, stating one thing (God is Love) does not disprove that God is not also Hate) Also, logically, because John is not quoted as saying God is Hate does not mean that God cannot be also Hate.
Please don’t get me wrong – I am NOT denying the Truth of John’s word or that God IS Love or proposing that God is in fact Satan ( instead of the other way around
) I am merely pointing out what i see as some false logic – a jumping to conclusions that cannot truthfully be drawn from what evidence we are given. It is important to only draw logical conclusions and to recognise the areas where our limited ‘logic’ cannot take us. ( building a house upon rock, not sand).
Your comment about not all Light being visible to us is a valuable one. What may appear as darkness to us may seem vastly bright to a bat or a dog who see things differently. (one ’sees’ sound and one sees more in the infra red spectrum than we do).
What each one of us perceives as light and dark may not bear much similarity to a wider ‘reality’ – we need to see BEYOND light and dark, good and evil. In a similar way we may be groping around in the dark when God’s light is shining brightly upon us – we merely don’t recognise it as such because of the way we choose to ‘look’ and fail to consider what else is actually there. Does that make what i was saying before any clearer?
Quantum Mechanics has led to the dicovery (through observable experimentation) of what i believe is the closest thing Man has ever come to proving God’s presence. Even at Absolute Zero there is still ‘movement’, an energy lower than can be detected by man’s most sensitive equipment. This seemingly ‘random’ motion of space itself takes the form of a field which is all-present (even throughtout otherwise ‘empty’ space) and affects all matter and is able to carry and transfer ‘information’. There is some evidence to suggest that our human brians are able to access this field directly.
This Force (field) is all-present, and may be the Universe’s most fundamental way of sending and receiving information (all-knowing). In this sense it would be All-powerful, in that it would have ‘control’ of EVERYTHING. What was that definition of One God again?
(Omniscient, Omni-present and Omnipotent? The First AND the Last? Was, Is and Always Will Be?)
All the Field needs now is to be ‘humanised’ and there We have It!
I don’t think my ‘understanding’ of being Christian is any greater than yours or anyone elses. It is just my understanding. I heard a fellow in church yesterday (someone who is somewhat ‘unchurched’ and being a tad apprehensive) mention the ‘God of his understanding’. I think that accepting this natural variety in perception is very important, and the great problem that fundamentalists face.
I think we have a problem if we assume that since something is not expressly denied in the Bible it remains as a viable option. John was attempting a major statement about God’s character. I think that if he (or any author) emphasizes a single characteristic to such an extent then we can assume that this is the overarching point he is trying to make. God is Love.
God cannot be hate,
very nice.
very inspiring..
i have nothing more to say.
Thank you, Charis. Please come back again, soon.
I think that LWBUT and I have gone off tangenting. Wisely he appears to have taken this conversation over onto his site:
http://lovewillbringustogether.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/war-on-error-first-salvo/
Meet us over there for some exciting new techniques in the splitting of hairs.
lol
Spiltting them? I thought i was bringing all the hairs together??
An tangenting we will go – a tangenting we will goooo….
P.S. I am in large agreement with what you say about many things – particularly about John above.
I do have a doubt about the ‘viable’ option however – just because something can be ‘viable’ don’t mean it is necessarily ‘preferable’
or vice versa come to that!
Just because John does not state God can be Hate doesn’t mean to act as if God is only hate is preferable or acceptable behaviour in humans.
btw – my wordpress photo was chosen for a reason ( sadly it does not appear on your blog?)
I believe i mentioned (maybe to InWorship) i can use sarcasm on myself as well as on others.
In the photo I have one (Right) eye. What cannot be seen in it is my other one – that should not be taken to mean I don’t use it also.
As far as your photo goes – what shade of Light are you chosing to look through? Rose perhaps? : )))
I’m guessing you don’t wear them ALL the time!
Yeah, I don;t know why your photo doesn’t post nor why your name does not link to your site. I wonder if you can adjust your initial settings to correct this. Maybe I can do it from this end. Hmm. As far as the shades go – always keep ‘em guessing. I had my corneas tinted rose.
Can you run that by me again? You lost me.
That name thing bugged me too – i think i have it sorted now?? I don’t see any photo’s on your comments though – I think that’s a Theme Thing at your end!?
Rose Corneas Hmmmm… If you had blue eyes and left a few white stripes you could really start a trend!
Lost You? Sorry, i’ll back up a track or three…
You were postulating God was only Good and i was saying He’s big enough to be both good and bad ( but in fact i feel he goes way beyond both so that the terms don’t mean anything as far as He is concerned – only as far as ‘we’ are). Then you quoted John (great quote) proving God is Love and ended with a statement that God cannot be ‘hate’ which seemed to me to be dependant upon both your own understanding as well as John’s informative Gospel ( and other sources)
.
I was merely trying ot follow on from my monologue on logic that Just because He is one thing doesn’t prevent him from being another BUT that that did not mean that I in any way believe that were God actually ‘hate’ (as well as Love) that it is a good thing for humans to hate or that we should adopt a God is Hate philosphy.
The real point i am trying to make?
We humans insist on ‘minimising’ what God is, we’re always tryng to ‘force’ Him to fit into one half of a spectrum while rejecting totally the other half which unfortuantely man ends up spending a fair bit of time in – the ‘bad’ bits… which only really ends up making us feel further away from God, if you ask me.How can we be like unto Him if He is ‘perfect’(ly good ALL the darn time) and we, clearly are not?
We do that mostly because we are not capable of understanding nor recognising how God can actually transcend what we understand by the terms ‘good’ and ‘bad’.
Maybe a different perspective?
God is THE Ultimate Authority – nothing has power over God .Therefore everything He does is ‘ok’ as he can never be punished. Are we going to define what is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ for God? Or what God ‘must’ be and must not be?
Disasters happen and people ask ‘How can God do this to me/us’? Is He punishing me for some Bad act?
As children that is the way we are taught to think. We expect to be punished if we stuff up really bad.
As adults we hold on to such beliefs and expect ‘bad’ behaviour to be punished.
I don’t think God was ‘brought up’ that way, nor do I believe he punishes us with tidal waves, earthquakes, droughts or pestilence. It’s kinda hard to get where God is compassionate and is ONLY Love though when such things take lives for no ‘good’ reason – don’t ya think?
Maybe I’m just not explaining myself quite well enough?
No, I get you loud and clear. You are addressing the POE – the classic Problem Of Evil.
Natural disasters are tough to rationalize. But are the disasterous elements due to our (human) exposure that which God did not intend. We have been kicked out of Eden (metaphor) and where do we land? Near tidal waves, earth quakes and hurricanes. If a tree falls in the forest and does not land on a person – is that disasterous? If no one either chose or were compelled to leave in flood plains or in trailer parks would violent nature have such dire effects? And then there is the golfer, trying to get in one last round before the stomr hits.
I guess what I have been thinking of are those questions that both atheists and theists aske; Why did God create the Devil? Why did God order the genocide of the Israelite’s enemies? Why did God allow that truck to hit my son’s car?
Jesus answers this question twice;
When a wall falls on some men, killing them he basically says that sometimes accidents will happen. No one ‘deserved’ it.
He says that a man may perhaps be born blind if for no other reason than to glorify God (in this case we are still talking about him 2000 years later)
I believe there are logical and perfectly ‘consistent’ answers to those kinds of questions. Sometimes it takes an ‘expanded’ view to be able to see them as waht they are.
Personal disasters really shake our world view and may be responsible for us turning towards or away from God.
I liked Inworship’s comments in his recent post about ‘comfort’ and how it can lead us to complacency.
Sometimes we need a little ’shaking up’ so as to maintain our efforts along the straight and narrow path.
I wasn’t really intending to get into POE. I was hoping to expand our view of ALL that God is in order that we have greater understanding of Him than many have held over the past 2 millenia.
Maybe we can then see the Big Picture a little more clearly and increase our tollerance of the faults and failings of us humans and not hate so much?
Still if you’d care to dive into POE for your own and other’s enlightenment – feel free!
Thank you for writing bravely. No truth-seeker should ever be threatened by the free exchange of ideas. All truth is God’s truth, and I’m one to believe that all truth is also revealed truth.
Peace and Love
John
Hey Christian,
It’s great to find another brother who is proclaiming that Christ died to save us from us and not from some mythical hell of eternal torment. Be encouraged that our numbers are growing and we will see the day in our lifetime when there is a great movement to just see everyone as another sister or brother in the great family of God.
Don
Thanks Don and welcome. I’m not as optimistic as you are, though. It seems that it is man’s natural instinct to want to control others as we as their own relationship with God. I think that religion is here to stay.
I see my friend Don Hicks here, too.
I believe that God leads us to others of like mind such as this, in order to encourage us to tell the really REALLY Good News.
Thank you.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. God’s Word is absolute truth. You can say what you think, and think what you wish, but the truth will not be changed. Your personal creed is your truth based on your feelings and your experiences. To humble oneself to accept the truth God reveals to us through faith has a life-changing and eternal consequence.
Hey Mark, welcome. You are spot on, brother. Always a challenge. How are you coming along with that?
Hey! I got sucked into this right before I need to go do something…DANG! I read half of it. I’ll return for the other half tomorrow.
Ah.. try not to rake me over the coals too much. It’s a little unorthodox.
rake you over the coals….I wouldn’t dream of it!
Remember now, we’re all about the love.
Seriously though, up to the point I read (still haven’t finished) there was only one thing we didn’t see eye to eye on, but I certainly am not going to debate you on it. ha! I’m no expert anyway.
It’s been a couple of years since I wrote that. Probably needs to be revised a bit. So perhaps our views might be closer than we think.
Expert? Lord, save me from experts.
Chris,
i was googling ‘enlightenment’ today and came upon your blog and was curious about the sunrise/sunset image near the beginning of your piece. who has rights to this image, if you know?
i am chairman of a group called ’sustainable communities partnership’ in VA. and am looking for a striking image for our communication devices and was wondering……..
great site by the way, i’ll be back when i have the time to spend. if you haven’t come across it yet, check out the Blue Mountain Center of Meditation…. easwaran.org…. which my wife and i are part of, much the same message that you hold on religion and spirituality.
thanks and all the best, swede
thank you for this, I am writing my own creed right now and I was enlightened by some of your words, thank you again
Hey Christian,
I don’t have your email but I wanted to let you know of a fantastic blog: http://www.fatherstephen.wordpress.com.
What lovely, inspiring yet down-to-earth spiritual ideas. I have been searching for something for a long time as conventional religion doesn’t click for me. I think this does. Thank you!
Thanks Karen. Please keep coming back. I’d love to hear your take on the spiritual.
Good afternoon
audio English only Quran for the first time on the internet
Islam is `the religion of peace’ because:
the Arabic word Islam is derived from the Arabic word “Al-Salaam” which means peace.
It might seem strange to think of this as a misconception, but in fact it is. The root word of Islam is “al-silm” which means “submission” or “surrender.” It is understood to mean “submission to Allah.” In spite of whatever noble intention has caused many a Muslim to claim that Islam is derived primarily from peace, this is not true. Allah says in the Qur’an (translated):
:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. “Muslimoon”]
A secondary root of Islam may be “Al-Salaam” (peace), however the text of the Qur’an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.
For more details click her
Good day
Click Here
Islam rejects Jesus because:
Jesus is not accepted as `the Son of God’
The Qur’an and Sunnah both teach us emphatically and without any doubt that the Creator considers the statement of the Trinity to be a great falsehood. The Qur’an states (translation):
9:88-93] They say: “(Allah) the Most Merciful has begotten a son!” Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) the Most Merciful. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) the Most Merciful that He should beget a son: Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) the Most Merciful as a servant.
However, the misconception that Jesus is rejected does not follow from the reason given above. It is more precise to say that identifying Jesus as `the Son of God’ is rejected. As a Messenger of Allah, Jesus is accorded the same honor that all the Messengers are given, as the following verse attests to (translation),
:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. “Muslimoon”]
For more details Click Here
Thank you. And welcome.
Very informative, and enlightening. It’s good to dispel as many of these misconceptions we have of each other as we can.
Thanks
I’m Karen who posted on June 10.
So much of your creed impacted me that it isn’t practical to address all of it in one post. I’ll pick some of my favorite points.
I was raised by atheists–secular progressives who did nothing but bash religion my entire childhood. They did, however, take me hiking and mountain climbing. I always found a way to get away from the group, because it was then that I felt the essence of which you speak. As you said, it flowed around, between and through me. It was so incredulous that I can only describe it as devine. I found it impossible to believe my parents’ teachings.
I tried formal religion but there were too many concepts that made no sense. For example, reading about the ten commandments and how God is a jealous, vengeful God. I simply can’t see this. Jealousy and vengefulness are roots of evil. They lead to destruction, hate, murder and war–to name a few. How could I love a God who claims He is the opposite of Christian principles of love and forgiveness?
Another point you made which really hit home is when you said we need to be “the least of these on earth.” I remember a high school friend who was a lovely, sweet, hard-working and humble young man. However he dedicated his life to making something of himself and achieving financial success. He berates me for not doing the same. Yet he is alone in his life, without a partner or family. He is unfufilled. He wishes to be ignored on his birthday because it is the day he laments his failures. (I have used your words to describe this because they are exactly the same words he uses.) Yet this man claims to be very religious.
These salient points induced me to read the rest of your creed. I look forward to discussing it with you and hearing any comments you may have about my thoughts.
Karen