Remove Fat and Insert Tool

In my younger days I was a bit of a motor head. I wasn’t into big American muscle but instead my tastes ran towards small European cars that handled well. (This was the seventies and the only Japanese cars that fit this bill were the Datsun 510 and Z cars). My preference was for German machines, and since I was on a National Boh budget this meant Volkswagens and Audis and not Bimmers or Porsches. But Porsches, Audis and VWs were all sisters under the skin and their DNA was good.

Rebuilding the engine on my Sirocco (yet again) I encountered an amusing little lesson on how sometimes things get lost in translation. It was a piston rod and was factory made in Wolfsburg. Inside the box, in typical German orderly fashion, the instructions read;

1.) Take out tool.

2.) Remove fat from tool.

3.) Insert tool.

Fat? Tool? Of course they meant the protective grease that covered the part for shipping. I thought it was pretty funny, especially since Germans are renowned for their precision.

I was reminded of this recently while participating in some theological discussions on the net involving differing translations of the same scriptural text. For example, in 1 Corinthians 6 and in 1 Timothy 1 Paul uses the words arsenokoitai and malakoi. These two words have been translated as ‘homosexual’ yet it is not clear to everyone what Paul meant. In fact, arsenokoitai (a word that Paul apparently coined himself) was for the longest time thought to be about masturbation. It wasn’t that long ago that the modern translations began to use the word ‘homosexual’ here.

I’ve talked before about how the word Sheol has been translated to mean both the grave as well as hell, or hades. There are other places where people, especially those who are critical of faith, point out the obvious contradictions and inconsistencies found in scripture. Usually these contradictions and inconsistencies can be explained as errors in translation or just a case of literary styling. I think it is good to take all this into consideration when presenting small portions of scripture as support for our arguments (which I do all the time, I know). I sometimes wonder if this was how the Bible was even intended to be used. Which might be more meaningful when we remember that for most of its history it was never even a book.

Here are three web pages that provide information on Paul’s use of these words, the last one providing the more traditional Christian position.

http://fogarty.org/tim/gay_issues/word_arsenokoitai.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm

http://www.catalystresources.org/issues/222dodd.html

And here is a link to one of the better atheist articles concerning biblical inconsistency. I think it’s worth while hearing the other side.

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/realbible.html

26 Responses to “Remove Fat and Insert Tool”

  1. Ricky Says:

    If this comment is on-topic, it’s totally cool Christian if you delete it or whatever. I think you would agree, that you would prefer to keep the discussion on here somewhat on-topic.

    But here goes….

    Look who’s taking the Bible literally! Haha. “Well, it doesn’t say homosexual in the original, so…”

    Can’t you read between the lines? So yes I would agree that there are some words that are hard to translate into English. My Strong’s Concordance even says something about “unsure” as to the meanings of the two words.

    So? How about this verse:

    2 Timothy 3:16 :

    “All Scripture is give by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    According to this verse, any verse, taken in the right context can be used by Christians for good doctrine.

    By looking at Old Testament passages on homosexuality, remembering that sexual acts between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman is sin, and seeing how those who sin cannot enter into Heaven, then I would say with 100% certainty that those who are homosexuals cannot enter into heaven, without accepting Christ and renouncing their sin(s). A homosexual can be saved, without question, but they cannot continue in that behavior and label themselves as Christian. The Christ they follow is the wrong one.

    If you read my post on this topic, which is at the bottom of this comment, you’d see why homosexuality is a sin. But this sin is no greater or less of a sin than any other mistake. All sins are equal before God. And if anyone wonders, I am by NO MEANS WHATSOEVER hating homosexuals. I would not be representing Christ well if I did so.

    I’m sure I’m starting something I don’t want or need to. But I feel quite strongly about this…and yeah I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

    http://twochannelstation.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/truth-and-love/

  2. Ricky Says:

    Oops sorry I meant if this comment was *off-topic not on-topic. If it was on-topic then you wouldn’t need to…yeah whatever. Haha.

  3. Christian Says:

    Ricky, touche’. You make a good point.

    I am so glad that you quoted that line in second Timothy. All scripture is profitable (or ‘useful’ in my translation). This is something my wife pointed out to me when were talking about the pitfalls of taking the Bible literally at all times. Saying that it is useful or profitable or helpful implies that it is a wonderful aid or tool in our journey. It implies that it is not all that is required or the only way in which God reveals his intentions for us.

    I understand and appreciate what you are saying and I do believe that your heartfelt intention to save folks is not only because of how you read God’s word but also because of your love for others.

    That being said, I don’t agree with you. A lot of that has to do with me ‘reading between the lines’ not just with Paul’s remarks here (although I certainly could read it the way you have) but the entirety of scriptures.

    I’ll check out your post. A dios.

  4. A little bit sad Says:

    A Rabbi once told me, that the reason the bible is the inspiration of God is because it came from man. Man came from God, you can not argue with that.

    Warning sorta angry here

    Lets play the devils advocate……my sister had a friend who was (still is) a homosexual. Being homosexual of course means your out casted by a lot of people, especially in a high school environment. He needed some love. We took him to a youth retreat. Did not turn out well. Why…..?……because he was homosexual. The evangelicals f***ed up, they could of had a convert. So what if he was a fluffy bunny Christian at first. That would be none of your concern. Only Christs. Do you not believe in the holy spirit? Do you not believe such things guide us? Fruit of the spirit anyone?

    Christ isn’t even given a chance for him to work on their hearts before evangelicals jump the gun and cry sin. Even if you believe it to be a sin…..why say it. Plant seeds……don’t shove a tree down their throat. Tell them about the love of Christ. If one asks you if you think such things are sin then tell them what you honestly believe. Don’t hide what you believe stand by it. On the same account however that doesn’t mean picking moral fights. Don’t turn it into a soap box extravaganza. Who did Christ speak with harsh words to, and which did he speak with soft words to. Mentioning such things a “righteous justice” to a vast audience will only meet you with spite. God is great, powerful and wise. He does most the work….he will call to their heart and they will figure out. Do his good work…..but don’t get in his way.

    I apologize for being off topic.

  5. Christian Says:

    You are far from off topic - you are right on. Well said.

    It’s sad, but I’ve seen this same thing with all kinds of people, not just homosexuals. Sadly, I’ve been guilty of this myself. I remember not going with my gut feelings, what I think now was the Holy Spirit at work, and instead going through a list of ‘risks’ involved in what I was going to say. “Is this biblical, what is the ‘right’ thing to say, what if I say the wrong thing and he doesn’t accept Christ?” When all along it is about just what you say it is. The love of Christ and will I allow it to show through me.

    Thanks for your comment. Thanks very much.

  6. Steve Says:

    Well, if your starting point is “obvious contradictions and inconsistencies found in scripture,” then the whole argument becomes a bit of a self-licking ice cream cone, and any conclusion you come to is gonna be suspect, at least from a scriptural point of view. Sadly, I find myself coming back to the line that the young-earth creationists are so fond of using: sometimes the obvious interpretation of a text is the correct one.

    We’ve all come across fundamentalists/atheists/young earthers/old earthers/homosexual activitists/evangelicals, etc, ad nauseum, who take a bit of scripture and use it out of context. I trust what Scripture says, even the bits about homosexuality, feminine submission and all the other parts that people object to so vehemently, and try to read them in the context of the entire Scripture as the inspired word of God to man. I’m not sorry that bits of it offend people. That’s what it was meant to do, and I’m actually happy when it offends me, because that means it’s touched a part of my life that is obviously not in synch with what He wants for me. Deal with the pffending bits and figure out what it means for your life.

  7. Christian Says:

    And sometimes its not.(The obvious answer being the correct one, that is. Just ask Dr. Watson :) )

    Anyway, that wasn’t my starting point. And, Steve, if your objection is to the word ‘obvious’ then what other word would you use to describe instances where one Gospel reports on the same incident differently than another? For me this is actually validation of the authenticity of the Gospel accounts - they are not just copies of one source but different accounts by different people of Jesus’ ministry. But skeptics look at it suspiciously and it serves little purpose to disregard their observations as irrelevant. especially when we are touting innerrancy and infallibility.

    I also trust what scripture says - but that doesn’t mean that I have to be so trusting of scripture that I never question it. Isn’t that a necessary part of reading the difficult bits into the entire scriptural context?

    I am finding that when issues such as those that you mention are brought up often the response is along the lines of “it’s in scripture, so just deal with it”. Yet when someone brings up what the bible says about the poor, the oppressed, systematic injustice, violence and war, it is often brushed aside. Those scriptures are not designed to comfort either.

    For whatever reason there seems to be this tendency to focus on sins of the individuals while ignoring our role in the sins of society.

  8. Ricky Says:

    I’m curious. Why is sin such a touchy issue in this society? Christian or not, it seems like if we mention the s-word, it’s viewed as something we shouldn’t talk about.

    Why is that? Will someone educate me on this? Haha.

  9. Christian Says:

    Sure. Pride. But that’s the real issue anyway - “pride comes before the fall” and all that.

    Everyone keeps saying things like; “Hey, it’s the truth and sometimes the truth hurts. People will be offended.” And that’s true.

    But my concern is not that I am all sad and mopey inside because some people might get their feelings hurt. My point is that by being ‘brutally honest’ with people - really letting them know how they are sinners in need of a savior, that they in essence need to be more like US, is terribly counterproductive. Because WE are still so tragically flawed and they do not understand how brokeness is part of Jesus’ way to salvation.

    Why is it a such a touchy issue for Christians that perhaps they should really take Jesus serious when he says that the log in our eyes are blinding us to the truth ourselves? Why is that so many Christians (myself included) are so sure that we are on top of things that we are qualified to point out the individual sin of others? I am not talking about our friends or even those in our immediate faith communities, although we must be very careful there. Nor am I talking about expressing our opinions on sin in forums like this.

  10. Janice Says:

    Howdy ho my internet buddy!

    <<>>>

    Yes, and no, and yes again. :)

    What it really comes down to is relationship. One CAN be ‘brutally’ honest with someone else if there is a relationship, or mutual respect…etc. It requires we use some wisdom and that we act with the other person in mind holistically (not just in part). And no, they don’t need to be more like US…lol….we need to point them to Christ, something better than us. :)

    ((hugs Christian)) was reading you somewhere else yesterday (the thread you referred to I believe)…. and wow….you showed an incredible amount of patience. I applaud your efforts.

    ~Janice

  11. Janice Says:

    Oh crackers. I had quoted you but I guess my symbols messed it up .. I quoted this:

    (((being ‘brutally honest’ with people - really letting them know how they are sinners in need of a savior, that they in essence need to be more like US, is terribly counterproductive.)))

  12. Steve Says:

    I am finding that when issues such as those that you mention are brought up often the response is along the lines of “it’s in scripture, so just deal with it”. Yet when someone brings up what the bible says about the poor, the oppressed, systematic injustice, violence and war, it is often brushed aside. Those scriptures are not designed to comfort either.

    You’re right that folks tend to brush aside the uncomfy bits of scripture, whatever their perspective, whether it regards God’s judgment for sin or ’social justice’ issues. It’s part of our nature to push away the parts we don’t like. My point was that we have to read all of it in context and not pick and choose. It’s all relevant to us, at some point or other. The Holy spirit leads and opens our eyes to the meanings we don’t choose to see.

    If your presumption is that Scripture is flawed and inconsistent, that makes it that much easier to ignore the conviction of the Spirit.

  13. Steve Says:

    Chrsitian,
    Reading the links you added puts me in mind of something attributed to Mark Twain. On his deathbed a neighbor found him reading Scripture, something he was not normally prone to do.

    “What are you doing,” the neighbor asked.

    “Looking for loopholes.”

  14. Janice Says:

    Hi Steve - Its been interesting to me to read this exchange as well as the exchanges on other blogs and on some forums — you said this:

    -we have to read all of it in context and not pick and choose. It’s all relevant to us, at some point or other. The Holy spirit leads and opens our eyes to the meanings we don’t choose to see.-

    I agree. And its interesting because people on different sides of the topics both say this. AND in doing exactly what you’ve said, people still come to different conclusions.

    What do you make of that and how do believers press forward (in unity) in light of that?

    Janice

  15. Ricky Says:

    Hey thanks Christian. I just want to talk about one thing. You said,

    “My point is that by being ‘brutally honest’ with people - really letting them know how they are sinners in need of a savior, that they in essence need to be more like US, is terribly counterproductive.”

    That is so true. That is definitely not what Christ told us to do in the Great Commission. Each translation I read always talks about sharing with people the message of Christ, not the message of ourselves being changed.

    Your point about “to be more like US” is great because God doesn’t want people to be like us, Christians, but rather to be more like himself.

    When we are witnessing, sharing our faith, talking with people, relating, etc. it always depends on the situation as to how we share the Gospel with others. However it will always come to a healthy balance of truth and love. The truth should not be,

    “You’re a sinner, and you need to be saved LIKE US, so you can go to heaven…”

    No, it should be, “WE ARE ALL sinners, and we ALL need Christ’s sacrifice to keep us from being separated from Him…”

    We have to keep everyone on an equal playing field. We’re no better than anyone else, it’s just that we are no longer a slave to sin.

    Awesome point, and I couldn’t agree more.

  16. Steve Says:

    Janice,
    That’s the $100 question, innit? I don’t have any easy answer. Be in prayer for wisdom, study the word, and meet in fellowship with other believers. When Paul says to ‘work our salvation with fear and trembling,’ I think this is part of what he was getting at. We’re not all going to come to the same answers because we’re not in the same place to start with, except all being sinners saved by grace. My concern is that people read Scripture selectively to justify their actions, beliefs and biases. As Christian said awhile back, that’s not how we’re supposed to use Scripture.

  17. Janice Says:

    Thanks Stever. I agree - with all of that.

    Personally speaking, I find that I am at a place where I am more able to do just that. There was a time when the talk of certain things - or especially talk of a different view point of things - and I shut down. I had no interest in taking part in the discussion and quickly labelled others as ‘wrong’, ‘nuts’, ’self justifying’, ‘picking and choosing’ etc…..and now I find that I see people as just being in different places, having different understandings, having part of the picture (as we all see but dimly now) and I’ve begun engaging more. Its been a blessing. God has really opened my heart and I am thankful. I no longer feel the compulsion or need to argree with everyone. Its a beautiful thing. I am overjoyed when I do find like minded believers…but I am also finding a great comraderie in new relationships with those who claim Christ and yet see doctrines and scriptural passages differently than I do. Its like being released of a huge burden that was never mine to carry and being freed to live and love.

    I didn’t intend to share all that, and I don’t mean to say that is where everyone should be or what they should reach for….we certainly all have different gifts, callings,etc.

    I guess I’m just really happy today resting in Christ and wanted to share.

    TIA for listening. :)
    Janice

  18. Stephanie Says:

    Wow Christian…..

    Another great post! I believe you are right on in your last comment. I can hear your passion! I am very thankful that Anita referred me over here. Thanks!

  19. Christian Says:

    Welcome back, Janice. Good insight - especially the $64,000 dollar question you posed. I think that answer is what this whole ‘emerging church’ adventure is attempting to find.

    Thanks, Stephanie. I’m glad she did as well.

  20. Janice Says:

    Heya Christian -

    [[I think that answer is what this whole ‘emerging church’ adventure is attempting to find.]]

    Yes, I suppose so. Or mayeb they’ve already found it and it IS the conversation. :)

    I guess thats why I get frustrated when people summarily dismiss the Emerging Conversation — or when they don’t see the EC the same way I do. I see it not as a ‘church’ or doctrinal position, other than the position that we’re not all there yet. The position that says we’re willing to explore and challenge. . . and let God decide where the chips may fall. Lets just get about the business of ‘doing my Father’s work’ or something to that effect. :)

    I mean, maybe many people will come back to the same positions that they left of that have been around for a long time, who knows. But maybe whats been around hasn’t been as correct as we have all thought. I dunno.

    I for one am open to conversing knowing that we are each held in God’s own hand… I figure God is big enough to straighten out my theology if it needs straightening out. I suppose though that following God despite fuzzy theology just might be part of the journey for me.

    And the journey (as I mentioned somewhere else) is really a large part of the purpose to begin with - the relationship, the life we live now, the ‘bringing God’s kingdom to the here and now’.

    BTW: saw a post over on the Kittimaquandi church blog (oh gracious how DO you spell that?) email me your experience? I’ve considered visiting there, just haven’t done it yet. I’m sorta pretty well enmeshed in my church..though I occassionally feel a real tug to come out from it.

    ~Janice

  21. Stephanie Says:

    Janice-

    Very nicely said…..

    I see it not as a ‘church’ or doctrinal position, other than the position that we’re not all there yet. The position that says we’re willing to explore and challenge. . . and let God decide where the chips may fall. Lets just get about the business of ‘doing my Father’s work’ or something to that effect.

  22. netprophet Says:

    Christian and all,
    Or should that be “all Christian?”

    It is so refreshing to be able to share our beliefs and opinions without feeling the fear of condemnation and finger wagging. I’m in agreement with all on this post and I would like to add one thing.

    I’ve been told so many times by so many “in the know” church leaders, that if I don’t accept the entire Bible as the word of God that I will fall into the trap of creating my own little comfort zone where I only accept what’s good for me and what I feel is not, I will just cast off as man’s interpretation. After all, that is man’s nature. I kind of agree with that part about the Word, however, when I ask them which interpretation do they suggest I accept? They of course always say theirs or their Church’s or Heaven forbid, that of the majority.

    I believe this is just the way God intended it to be. The reason I believe this is the tower of Babel. In complete unity we have no need for God. What other reason would God have to confound our languages other than to help us understand that in our differences there is He! In other words, unless we want to do no more than debate and argue our questions and opinions knowing we will never reach total agreement or solve any mystery we seek the solution of, we have to turn to the Holy Spirit (Who is the Bible’s inspiration in the first place). And there it is. The answer we have all been looking for. Ha! Ha! :-)

  23. Janice Says:

    Thanks for the affirmation Stephanie!

    Netprophet- I will be pondering that- tower of babel and all - thank you for that. I immediately think of the passage where were are told to maintain unity but also to attain unity — kind of as in we are already ‘one’ and yet we still have some unity issues to work out…perhpas that is a never ending process.

    I believe I am definitely of the personality that I NEED some confusion or issues in my life to remind me of my need for God. (guess thats one of my character flaws) else I’m likely to go building my own towers in my own powers and pride. I wish it weren’t so..but I think it just kind of is for me.

    Thanks again,
    Janice

  24. Stephanie Says:

    Net-

    That’s beautiful…………….

    I believe this is just the way God intended it to be. The reason I believe this is the tower of Babel. In complete unity we have no need for God. What other reason would God have to confound our languages other than to help us understand that in our differences there is He!

    YES! YES! YES!

  25. Christian Says:

    Wow - Good stuff. Didn’t mean to be sitting things out but….it’s our 26th anniversary today so I’ve been spending time with my ‘blogging widow’.

  26. Janice Says:

    Happy Anniversary!

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