Ministerial Mojo
One of the reasons I left my beloved old church was a disagreement (one of many) that I had over denominational doctrine. The first time this particular doctrine was revealed to me was at a youth event during which communion was celebrated. I was surprised that my pastor at the time, who I greatly admired and respected, did not partake. After asking why, I was told that it was because the elements (the bread and grape juice) had not been ’sanctified’ by an ordained minister. (something Buddy O described once as the minister’s ‘holy mojo’).
This surprised me even more because I thought this requirement was unique to Roman Catholicism. Later on the issue was raised again during a church committee meeting (shudder!). We were trying to work out a way for our new pastor to take some time off and visit his original home and family, on the other side of the globe. The great challenge was finding someone who could lead the Sunday worship service in his absence. Our community was blessed with quite a few lay ministers so that shouldn’t have been much of a problem, yet none were ordained (hence the lay prefix). How were the dinner rolls and grape juice going to be ’sanctified’?
The discussion continued for some time when I (exasperated) suggested that we need not worry about it, that I would perform the needed blessing (attempts at humor are often often lost on church committee members). Some chuckled uneasily, but most were taken aback. One lady even let me know that if anyone other than an ordained elder sanctified the elements then it would not really be ‘communion’ but rather a ‘love feast’. Initially I was excited about this prospect until I found out that no Acapulco Gold would be shared during this ‘love feast’. Shucks!
In the first letter to the Corinthians we have the bible’s earliest account of the last supper. Paul quotes Jesus as saying:
“This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
With all due respect for those who hold the priestly tradition dear, I don’t hear Jesus saying; “Go forth once week (or maybe just once a month) and find a priest. After he has prayed over some bread and wine, only then may you share in this meal that someday will be called Holy Communion.”
How is it done in your faith community? Do you think that there is a need for ordained clergy to be present in order for us to celebrate this meal, in remembrance and honor of Jesus? Is there something ’special’ about ministers or priest? Do they have hands that are somehow more holy than ours, or can any believer share in this sacrament directly with God?
Well, it is a long-standing tradition in the Christian and Roman Catholic churches to have a pastor, priest or some other head figure in the church to perform the ceremony. While I’ve never seen Biblical evidence for or against this tradition, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong.
I don’t think it is NECESSARY for a pastor or ordained clergy to be present during the ceremony or actually perform the honors. Matthew 18:20 says, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.” I think this verse relates to the verse you quoted in the fact that Communion is a time to remember and thank Christ for his sacrifice; this is usually done within a group of believers, and as such Christ is present. It matters not who performs the ceremony or is there to manage it. As long as it’s done like Christ did it, then it’s all good.
(shaking his head) I’m amazed at how frequently believers reduce worship to a formula. It degrades the whole concept of worship.
I thought we were called the “priesthood of believers.”
What I think is missed here is how much the Catholic traditions are laid over the old pagan motifs.
For my part I think and STILL think there is much beauty and symbolism in the Catholic rituals…they’re mostly harmless and benign to my mind…it’s the dogma I find destructive.
I still look back with fondness the midnight mass on Christmas Eve….the incense the pageantry….it gave the congregation a sense of belonging and community.
Picture if you will a brown haired green eyed eight-year-old altar boy singing solo the chorus of ‘Adeste Fidelis’.
I wonder if the really believing that a virgin gave birth to a God was really all that important to anyone in attendance? I know that even then, I never really took that part seriously. What was important was the idea that “Christmas is for everybody because it’s about the possibility that God could come come into human life and inspire renewal. That’s what this story is about. It’s about God deliberately coming into our world and offering us a chance to start fresh.”
Just an atheists view…
R.
Robert- I can sympathize with your feelings about the RCC, as I’ve talked about before. But I wasn’t trying to criticize anyone’s traditions, much less theirs. My question is concerning the various church doctrines that either state or suggest that their must be an intermediary (clergy) between us (laity) and God. It certainly is not confined to the Catholic church.
Michelle -I looked up that quote before I wrote this post. I didn’t include it because I could not find it in the Bible. It appears to be attributed to Luther. There are verses that support that statement, but other traditions have used these same verses to support their doctrine of an ordained priesthood.
The experience I related above was in a Methodist church. I found out that Methodists are not true Protestants, but an offshoot of the Anglican church, which retained many of the Roman Catholic traditions.
I think it is interesting that we’ve been talking about the Jewish roots of Christianity lately and it struck me that Jews no longer have the priesthood.
No one really has the priesthood technically, until they’ve accepted Christ as Savior. But I see your point.
Sounds like our old Methodist church. Our current church is non-denominational and we do not have an ‘ordained’ pastor. One of the elders is a retired, ordained Methodist pastor but he is not the one who ’sanctifies’ the bread and juice. Our non-ordained pastor blesses “the elements” and the we all receive, including the retired Methodist pastor.
Religion Sucks; Love Rocks. Galatians 5:6
(ric’s ahh… translation, rat?)
My wife is United Methodist clergy and we have the same debate sometimes — i.e., do the elements need to be blessed by an elder to be okay? She feels okay receiving Communion at Cedar Ridge, where someone (not an ordained elder) does bless the elements. She feels less comfortable at other places where they don’t do as much to bless the elements prior to serving communion — she’s been known to bless the elements herself when she receives them.
The UM understanding is that the elders are ordained to “word , order, and sacrament” so they are the ones who usually bless the communion elements. I can see the point I think. They want to make sure the sacrament is overseen by someone with the right grounding and understanding of the significance of what is taking place — i.e., it’s not just eating bread and drinking grape juice. But OTOH, where I disagree is the idea that the person who has that understanding has to be someone with a seminary background. Why can’t lay people do the same thing?
Being a minister, pastor, or preacher, whatever term you want to use does have qualifications. If you read Paul’s instructions to Timothy about how to pick elders and leaders in the church, it’s pretty extensive.
Technically, lay people can do the stuff seminary grad’s do. But it’s a question of whether or not the lay people have the correct understand of what they’re doing. There’s a worry that if they don’t have the right training they may say something unintentionally, but it comes out as heresy or whatever.
Not that lay people are incapable of doing anything religious by any means, simply that it’s more comfortable for us to have someone trained to do it.
Think of it like a car. A normal guy or girl could change the oil themselves without too much difficulty, but they need to be “trained” on which oil to use, how much to use, how to keep everything clean, how to spot problems in the engine, etc. One mistake can lead to a broken car.
Ric – brevity is next to Godliness. Good one.
Alan, I could see where there might be some ‘tension’ surrounding this in your home. And I agree, communion should not be taken lightly – but just how serious should it be for someone?- especially as most everyone is in a different place spiritually at different times.
Ricky, I could see your point if you were a Roman Catholic. The automobile has certain functional expectations. It has to start, run, turn and stop, at the minimum. An unskilled mechanic can screw it up, no matter who does the driving.
But let’s consider communion for a minute; if I take communion, with full understanding of its significance, its symbolism, how it cements the union of a God loving community as well as how it feeds my spirituality but then discover that not only was my minister not ordained, did not sanctify the bread and wine and was also struggling with his faith in Christ – does that in any way effect my communion with God? Has it in any way been tainted?
Unless you believe in transubstantiation (and I respect those who do) there is no physical or supernatural change taking place within the bread and wine. Even if there is a change, it is enacted by God, not the man who hold his hands over it.
Even though I firmly disagree with the Catholic (as well as Methodists etc) take on ministry, it does seem to me that Catholics,in general, seem to consider this sacrament much more seriously than most other denominations. In spite of that darn wafer!
I have Protestant friends who have respectfully not partaken of Catholic communion because their church doctrine says that only a baptized Catholic who has been trained should be allowed. I also have good friend who is a RC priest, has been for over 40 years. His take on this goes like this; “Horse shit”. He invites all to the altar. I don’t think he is unique in this regard, outside of Rome, anyway.
Of course, it’s no secret that I think that the creation of the clergy (in spite of what Paul has written) was a ‘clerical error’. Sorry, Brent.
To answer your question about communion, I do not see any reason why your communion with God would be tainted or less real because there was no ordained minister present, or actually performing the ceremony. That’s why communion is so special. While we often perform it in a corporate setting, which is by no means right or wrong, it is still a one-on-one encounter with God.
And I will resist all urges to respond to your last sentence. It’s hard…
“With all due respect for those who hold the priestly tradition dear”
There’s the issue. “blessing” communion or the need some sort of ordained person is 100% denominational and false doctrine. completely unbiblical. Some may ask that this happen as a tradition, but if it were not to happen, it is unthinkable that a church would not allow people to have communion because of it.
“Well, it is a long-standing tradition in the Christian and Roman Catholic churches…”
Being as I have grown up Baptist and am a part of a non-denominational church right now, I would have to say this is a pretty broad statement. The Baptist denomination does not require this and most definitely, non-denominational churches do not require this either. So, this is a broad statement.
It’s meant to be. Notice I did not say “requirement” but rather “tradition.” There’s a difference, at least in my mind.
“Of course, it’s no secret that I think that the creation of the clergy (in spite of what Paul has written) was a ‘clerical error’. Sorry, Brent.
”
Oooh now I’m pissed…not really
Although, I have a hard time disregarding Paul’s teachings, but we’ve been down this road before and I am sure we will be down it again
@Ricky, Maybe I misunderstood, but Christian’s question was if a minister Wasn’t ordained, does it make it less real, but you responded to whether the minister was ordained. maybe I am confused.
I think the point here is not whether someone is ordained, but whether or not communion should be allowed if a minister is not ordained. My cry would be EMPHATICALLY…YES!
What churches have done so well at is claiming ownership or right to ideas and procedures that they have no ownership or right to.
@Ricky, I would see the difference there, although, I still state that it is too broad. There are 1000’s of Christian churches that encourage the breaking of bread in homes and small groups without the “assistance” of an ordained leader.
I agree with you totally. Communion is a personal experience regardless of whoever says what.
But I still don’t see that there’s anything inherently wrong with doing it with an ordained minister, or in a corporate setting. But that’s just me.
But at least admit that it was clever. Please.
Gotcha Ricky, i wouldn’t have an issue with it, cause I know what communion means to me. I wasn’t sure if you were just responding to one side of the thought.
Christian, you are the most clever person I have ever met…
Haha. Yes Christian, it was quite clever.
I’m not gonna resist – ‘clerical error’?? God’s gonna get you for that one Chris!
Anf if he doesn’t HRC will – long live the cafe!
Looking at In Worship’s blog comments i think he might have got there first?
<B
Brent and Ricky – you both have the correct answer. Love – you are wrong. I hope.
Drat! – I was wrong – so far……
<B
Yay. I win! Sort of…
Your article reminded me of a Jewish friend who now accepts Jesus as the Messiah. I asked him if he felt more comfortable be called a Jewish Christian, a Christian or if he still considered himself a Jew? He said, “It doesn’t matter what you call me, it only matters that Jesus called me. And when I asked him if he still held fast to the Jewish law he said, “You can stick a large fork in a pig’s ass but it serves no real purpose. However if you stick a large fork in a dead pig’s ass it serves him very well.” What do you think he meant by that?
I haven’t a clue. The other line – ‘it only matters that Jesus called me’ – that is wonderful. I think that I might borrow that one. Thanks.
I don’t think it matters who passes out the food at the meal, but I am surprised that nobody brought up the form (well, indirectly someone said something about it).
What I find disturbing about communion in general is not who administers the “elements” it’s that what has been lost is that a) Jesus was sitting down to a meal about to be shared with his close friends, and b) it happened to be a passover meal.
I believe “communion” or remembering what Jesus did at the last supper is something we are to remember every time we sit down to a meal, and moreso we should remember to sit down to a meal with invited friends/guests on a regular basis. That’s how we do it at our house.
Hoah Brudder. The silly stuff Christians argue about. Sheesh.
All of this is ridiculous. If RC, the wafer and wine are accidents, and in themselves possess the b and b of Christ. If evangelical, just elements.
We attend a C of G, Findlay, OH version. Those folks do communion twice a year, and the foot-washing with it.
All of the churches ought to lighten up and enjoy life.
HRC – Holy Roman Catholic?
Heartbroken Recovering Catholic?
Ok guys. Try this on for size.
Jesus was not concerned with the ‘law’. Jesus worked on the Sabbath when he pulled the lamb out of the ditch and also when he healed on the Sabbath. Why, because did He not fulfill the law and later free us from it? So why are we creating new laws in His name?
In the above reference from my Jewish friend turned believer in Christ, My friend was, allegorically, saying two things. 1) The law represented by the pig (an unclean animal) is, after Christ’s death, of no purpose. The “fork serves him very nicely” was in reference to serving the pig for dinner. 2) The whole example refers to the ideology of Jesus’ being the “Bread of Life’ and His blood (or death) offering the world salvation.
Jesus wanted us to remember this, not by creating a new ritual, but by sharing this message with the masses. The Catholics created the ritual as a means of doing this among a large congregation. Remember Peter who the Catholics claim to be their first Papal figure, had some problems with the continuation of Jewish law.
If you feel that it is import to always have an ordained minister (or High Priest) perform the ceremony, then you better to go to ‘confession’ if you’ve eaten an ‘unclean’ Eucharist.
Boys – you all nailed it. We’ve turned a meal among friends, a regular celebration of life, into an occasional and often stiffly formal ritual. Religion again trumps the Spirit. Lighten up indeed!
Sorry! I just read my last post and it sounds harsh and dictatorial. It was only my thoughts on the matter and not meant to be doctrinal.
The Lord’s Supper was a Passover meal…as often as you do this, remember Me…wasn’t Passover once a year?
So when we come together for Passover, we are to remember all that YHWH did for us in bringing us out of Egypt to a land of freedom flowing with milk and honey. Now, while you remember this, know that this is the blood of the New Covenant (the old has passed away, behold He makes all things new) poured out for you. Eat the bread of My life and be filled. Walk through the pieces of My flesh (the veil rent in two from top to bottom) that was broken for you and know I have entered into the Holy of Holies and have given My blood (as the Passover Lamb) as a propitiation for all your sins. My Father is completely satisfied, no more sacrifice is needed, it has been accomplished once for all. When you come together for this Passover meal remember I have completed the work for you, I give you Covenant promises, I will never leave you nor forsake you, now go…and live life in the power I give through My Spirit…whenever you need, moment by moment, come to the throne room and let’s talk.
Amen?!
Interesting take, Michelle. That’s worth some thought. Of course, the Passover meal required not priestly functionary.
What about the Ultimate Priest who inducted the meal – our High Priest who inaugurated it all through His blood, and indwells each believer, so in that sense, He’s there every time.
You know, that “priesthood of believers” phrase might be an older translation of the teaching in 1 Peter. At least the allusion to such a thought is not contrary to the point made in chapter 3, I think?
Right! He is there, all the time. No need for a chap in chasuble and stole.
No clue what a chasuble or stole might be — I’m assuming that’s what they wear in Catholic services. I’ve been in a Greek Orthodox and Anglican service only on a couple of occassions — ritual is lost on me. I was a member of a Methodist church for a time, not one with robes, quite laid back actually. I think I’ve run the gamut of the denominations — now we go to Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. Stuart and Jill Briscoe’s son, Pete, is the pastor. Great place and very accepting of all.
Wow! Two agreements? Hmm. Is it someone’s birthday? Cause I know your employer, Chris, would never serve alcohol, except on special occassions.
I just came back from some hearing some presentations of papers–one was on the Eucharist. Someone named Endo wrote a book about RC folks in Japan, set around 16–. It seems that the folks in Japan could not understand the bread and wine, so they used Saki and Rice–and Rome approved.
Another line I heard in the lecture was The Eurcharist makes the church, the church does not make the Eucharist.
Paul mentions communion in connection with a fellowship meal–if that is true, only a few denominations, the Brethren and some Churches of God, Findlay, Ohio folks, as far as I know.
Personally, of all the positions on the Eucharist, consubstantiation seems the most interesting. It keeps the glory of the rite without the hocus-pocus.
Ambrosia
Endo has written some wonderful stuff. Phil Yancey first turned me on to him. (Phil and I would occasionally get together for coffee)
We once served fresh baked cookies and milk at CRCC. It was all about the smell of the cookies – the sensuality of the aroma. Rome did not approve.
Jesus who loved us and made us kings and priests to God and His Father. Jesus being our High Priest has made us a royal priesthood and has opened a new way through his body so that we may offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God.
Just responded to some comments elsewhere about the “Magic Mojo” required to perform a valid marriage. It reminded me of what we’re actually supposed to remember each time we take communion.
Not (just?) the somber, reverent images of Christ dying for us, but the Joy and elation of the wedding to come… the Feast of the Lamb. “Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready.” (Revelation is so awesome!)
Everytime I take communion I think of (remember) the joy, hope, peace and love of Chirst… available to me today and will come to it’s apex at the Feast of the Lamb! It resides in me and is there for me to share, to do my part to “make ready the bride”
What a shame it would be if it were true that only a select few were imbued with that special mystical magic mojo that transformed simple bread and wine into a blessed reminder.
Welcome back, Bud. Thank God that this is not the case. Too bad that more do not realize it.