10 Fundamental Questions about Christianity

2008 March 21
by Mr. Holland

evangometerI just spent some time arguing certain tenets of faith with a self professed Christian Evangelical /Fundamentalist. I found his remarks to be fairly typical of most conservative Christians so I thought they might be worth discussing. I’ve generalized my questions to him in the hope for at least some sort of brevity. I wonder where many of you stand on these issues. 1.) Isn’t it possible, as CS Lewis suggests in Mere Christianity, for a person of another religion to encounter Christ? (such as the centurion that Jesus lauded for having great faith):

How can I find Jesus in another religion, when the only “religion” He preached was the Christian/Biblical one? Now, you may be saying that we can find elements of Christianity in other religions, and use them to show them Jesus. But Jesus cannot be found (literally) in another religion.

2.) What about, for example, the fate of a young Hindu boy, never having encountered a missionary or a Bible:

As tragic as it is, I would say that yes, if the boy never believes and has faith in Jesus Christ, then he would go to hell whenever he dies.

3.) So then there is no way for someone, who is not a Christian, to realize their salvation?:

That’s exactly right! In order to go to heaven and spend eternity with Christ, you have to believe in Him and the fact that he is the ONLY way to Heaven!….If you don’t believe that, then you can’t go!

4.) But that does not seem to be consistent with the picture of the Father, a God of love, as revealed through Jesus’ ministry here on earth:

Yes God is a god of love. He would desire all to partake of heaven, but some won’t. Simple as that. If you don’t believe that that John 3:16, and John 14:6 then you cannot call yourself a Christian. Because you aren’t following the Christ of the Bible.

You struggle with accepting the fact that God could create a place of eternal punishment. Why? Why is that illogical? God is love, and as such he sent his Son to die! We now have a way to escape the eternal punishment for our sins. There would be no Hell if we hadn’t sinned, or if Satan hadn’t rebelled.

5.) The doctrine of Hell looks to be un-biblical, certain foreign ideas about such a place appear to have been incorporated into the various translations of scripture:

Either you believe in the Bible’s truth or you don’t. There’s usually no gray areas with scripture. Usually.I’ve stated it already, read John 14:6. If you do not believe that, and believe that only through faith in Christ we can live eternally with Him (John 3:16), then you are not a Christian. You are not a believer. If you were to die not believing that, then you would sadly not be in Heaven, but rather Hell. I have no problem saying that because God said it not me. Something inspired by God must be infallible because a perfect God thought of it. You contradict yourself way too much. The Word of God is open to interpretation because as humans, we’ll never fully understand everything but that doesn’t make the Word fallible. It’s only a reminder of how fallible we are. If you don’t believe the divinely inspired Word of God is infallible than you deny that God is infallible.

6.) How about divine revelation through creation? Can’t someone know God through nature?:

I would agree with you that people can see God’s work in nature, but they have to attribute that to God, the god of the Bible

7.) When we talk of the Christian religion, Jesus knew of no such thing. He was a practicing Jew that demonstrated what living out God’s law looked like. Even, Paul, in his letters, never lost sight of the fact that he himself was Jewish and one of his great challenges was how to instruct others into welcoming the Gentiles into a Jewish faith community:

Paul was a Jew? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. So the whole experience on the road to Damascus was just a random event? Paul encountered God on the road, and made a fundamental shift to spreading the gospel. A Christian is someone who follows Christ.

8.) It seemed that Jesus spent much time speaking out against religion, particularly those doctrines that were so rigid that they tended to obscure the spirit of God’s law:

Rigid doctrinal walls are necessary and they will always be necessary. I will never back down from the basic doctrines I believe in. Though I may be labeled fundamentalist, judgmental, ignorant, divisive, I attribute all that to the Bible.

9.) But isn’t Jesus’ message of love and forgiveness the real ‘meat’ of the Gospel? Although described by some as coming from a ‘fluffy and cuddly’ Jesus, isn’t this message the hardest to digest? Just look around; is anyone truly following him?:

I don’t want my faith to be fluffy or cuddly. I want it to be defined very clearly….I find incredible joy knowing that my beliefs are substantiated by the Word of God. Though I will never understand everything, that does not limit the infallibility and wonderful nature of God Almighty…..A fundamentalist such as myself is not anti-witnessing or relating to people, I do that everyday. I’m merely wanting others to know exactly where I stand. I’d rather a non-believer know exactly where I stand, than leave it up for debate in the hopes of gaining a friend.

10.) What about those people who are turned off by fire and brimstone rhetoric? Perhaps we are doing the Gospel a disservice by being so confrontational;

….only those with the eyes to see, and the ears to hear will accept Christ.

Unfortunately, the conversations often ended this way:

I may not be understanding you, but if you can bring me Biblical proof to substantiate your claim, I’m all for it.

What say you?

90 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 March 21

    Do you think it is close minded to forbid another person to believe a truth dogmatically?

    I do. I think that you may disagree with this person but your mind is not any more open than his. You have closed him off just as he has closed you off.

    There is nothing wrong if a person says that a singla religion is the way to heaven. Christ said himself, “i am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by me.”

    If that is unloving, close-minded and arrogant. Than you must agree that Jesus was all of these things.

  2. 2008 March 21
    netprophet permalink

    What do you care about what others think? You said you wondered what others might think about these issues, but it is very obvious that any opinion other than your own is wrong. You say that you don’t have all the answers yet you express your views as a man possessed. Lighten up! Even if all your statements were true, I don’t believe anyone will think more of you than a fanatic and dismiss you altogether. Fortunately People will only come to know Christ by the loving tug of the Holy Spirit regardless of your efforts to distort the Truth. If you disagree, you’ll surely post this comment and let others respond.

  3. 2008 March 21

    Easy now fellas. I only posted some questions and answers. The only time I will admit to editorializing was my the penultimate line. Of course anyone who has a surplus of time on their hands and has read anything else on this blog must know where I am coming from, so there is no reason to get all hot and bothered.

    As far as not having an open mind and closing this person off, you couldn’t be farther from the truth. I used to agree with every one of his statements, lock, stock and barrel. I would love to continue talking with him (and you fellows as well) as long as we try to keep it friendly ( tempers will flare on occasion ;) ) And I never said the words unloving, close minded or arrogant. Where did that come from?

    But I do not care a lick about what others may think of me (well, ok, maybe a small lick). I do care about the way I see Jesus being misrepresented, usually to the ill fortune of others.

    Hey, thanks for coming by. The goal is to get a better idea where we are all coming from.

  4. 2008 March 21

    I just disabled the link to Netpropet’s URL because I think he may be a spambot. (More like Net profit) Very clever, challenging me to post his comment. They sure are making them sound smart these days.

    (Well, maybe smart is not the right word.)

  5. 2008 March 21
    dswerling permalink

    Fundamentalists such as this one will destroy Christianity. They have few philisophical points to make, limited perspective, and are desperate to believe something to keep their lives in order. I love the way these people twist what Luther said too. Luther says (and it is in the BIble) that we are saved through faith alone. Of course, he said this as a reaction to certain parts of Roman Catholicism. Take, for example, the insincere Catholic who may go to confession thinking of it as a grocery list of bad deeds to be forgiven rather than a sincere confession of sin and a request for absolution. Of course that’s bad. Now take the evangelical Protestant who says “I believe Christ died for me so I can do whatever I want and I’ll still go to heaven!” The two possibilities have a lot in common don’t they?

    The Fundamentalist sums it up very well when he says “I don’t want my faith to be fluffy or cuddly, I want it to be defined very clearly…” Exactly. Thinking about these issues is hard, it takes a long time, and it can even be emotionally painful. But why think about it? You can jump on the “Fundamentalist Bandwagon” and now you’re a “real” Christian! You don’t have to think about it, explore the faith, reach thoughtful conclusions, no no no, that’s all too difficult. It’s much easier if we just take what the Bible says at face value, and not worry about anything else. Wonderful isn’t it?!

    It’s a hard world for thoughtful Christians these days. We have the Atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Dennett telling us we’re all idiots on one side. Then we have the fundamentalists like Falwell telling us we’re all going to hell because we don’t love Jesus on the other side. God be with us, because it’s hard times for Christians these days.

  6. 2008 March 21

    Sad, but true.

  7. 2008 March 21
    logiopath permalink

    Trying to corrupt another Blessed Child of God?

    Hmm.

  8. 2008 March 21
    logiopath permalink

    P. S. I may come and bother you this week. Maybe we can settle this question.

  9. 2008 March 22

    Oh Ye of Little Faith? You perverse and faithelss generation How long must I suffer thee?

    Nowadays He (i) would be able to fairly add Oh Ye of Little BRAIN! At least way back then most were illiterate and had not the excuse of being able to intelligently and rationally discuss with those of like AND DISLIKE minds to reach amiable and fair conclusions concerning those things OUR OWN ( not God’s) perspectives make us see differently to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    It sickens me greatly to see how closed minded and unable to see an alternative interpretation to the one they have become enamoured – fallen in ‘love’ – with some otherwise intelligent human beings become over this topic.

    I can never change a person’s mind – once it has become set and no further evidence is able to get past the ‘wall’ they set up in themselves. What is important to understand though is that the WAY to God (through ‘Jesus’ ) is DIFFERENT for each and every one of us – we all walk down (or up) along differing paths. Providing they all meet at the same end point it matters not a great deal the ‘dogma’ that helps each of us get there.

    If believing that there is only ONE ‘way’ to reach God helps you stay on the ’straight and narrow way’ then that is good for you. If believing that those who don’t do as you (currently) think is the ‘right’ way they are forever cut-off from the ONE God off all (who-else could give life to a human?) and condemned by Him to burn in agony and perpetual torment and you can sleep soundly in your beds as a result of that – then i say Good for you – however warped your mind becomes in the process!

    it is NOT necessary to profess Jesus to reach Heaven – any more than it is necessary for me to profess being BIll Gate’s Son in order to receive an inheritance from him.

    Where everyone seems to get John 14:6 so wrong is in making the too literal interpretation.

    We must BE and DO as Jesus Did – making ourself subjugate ALWAYS and in ALL-WAYS our Living God/Father’s WILL!, By doing only His Will and not those of our selfish and perverse desires of our self-created ego we may, if worthy, be able to walk with God.

    Those who place scripture and dogma above the Word of God in the hearts and minds of our fellow man would no doubt be happy to walk away from any version of ‘Heaven’ that contained people who think and act diversely to themselves here on earth, while remaining full of their own pride and certainty, knowing full-well their own fallibility, blindness and deafness.

    love <3

  10. 2008 March 22

    When you say that it is “NOT necessary to profess Jesus to reach Heaven” do you really mean that it is NOT enough to profess Jesus? That if we honestly call him Lord, we would be expected to follow his direction.

  11. 2008 March 22

    3.) So then there is no way for someone, who is not a Christian, to realize their salvation?:

    Christian, I don’t understand this question. What is meant by “realize their salvation?” How would anyone know they were in need of salvation if they did not understand that someone came to die for them? I mean, I grew up in a Christian home so it is very difficult for me to imagine not knowing about Jesus. So I wonder what it would be to have never heard the word…the only “religion” I know that has ever expressed a need for a Savior is Christianity. Yahwah let Israel know what it meant to be righteous – right living vs. sinful living – but aside from giving them the Law, He did not offer a “way of salvation” outside of belief in a coming Messiah…faith in Messiah has always been the cornerstone of being declared “righteous” (aka salvation) from Abraham until today…so I can’t figure out how anyone could come to an understanding of salvation without the scripture.

    I’m not sure I’m making myself clear – Do you know what I’m asking?

  12. 2008 March 22

    Well, in my experience, talking to other Christians, they usually did not consciously seek a savior nor realize that there was a need to have been ’saved’ from their life of wrong-headedness (sin) until after they encountered Christ. My feelings are that at this moment they are not ’saved’, they just now realize, that they have been shown, their salvation through Christ Jesus. The action of accepting Christ cannot be the lynch pin of their salvation because it is an act. Sole fide and all that.

    The Jews had a means of salvation – the Law, which was summed up even prior to Christ as to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    But my question isn’t limited to how Jews may realize their salvation but if people of other faiths can encounter the true God.

    So if someone cannot come to this understanding without the Jewish (OT/NT) scriptures, what is their fate?

  13. 2008 March 22

    I don’t understand how it works, but I do believe He will not lose any who will come.

    The whole predestination question comes into play – I suppose. I had one pastor explain it’s like a doorway with the words overhead, “Come unto Me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest…” After walking through the door the believer looks back and sees the words at the top of the doorway once more, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you.”

    Someone who has never heard the word, but wants to know the truth of God, I believe He makes Himself known to that person. He can do anything…give a vision…make the stones cry out…anything. Yet I also hold to sola scriptura – it seems contradictory – I am so glad I am not the final Judge! Faith in what is my question…

  14. 2008 March 22

    Right. You’re last line – ‘faith in what is my question’ – what do you mean by that? (Sorry, I not too bright)

  15. 2008 March 22

    If faith in the One True God is where anyone puts their trust – I know He will work it out, based upon His word. (I’m thinking of Nineveh on this one) But if faith is in a way contrary to His word – then that makes our faith a deception, doesn’t it?

  16. 2008 March 22

    Yes, i would agree with your last sentence. Sounds like you are describing much of most religion.

    Where I might have a problem is in your first sentence. Who defines who the One True God is? Or does that need to be defined? Can it be defined?

    How would you define this and if one does not have this same understanding what does it mean for them?

    I’ve got to run but I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this ( as well as anyone else who may be listening)

  17. 2008 March 22

    I am thinking of the scenario given in Romans – just to be sure we’re on the same page:

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,”

    So it seems it is possible to know the truth and then suppress it in unrighteousness…

    “because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.”

    So within man is the evidence of God. I think this is what is now being called the “God-hole”…

    “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

    And externally (in nature) God is clearly seen…so there is no excuse for not believing God (a Creator) exists…from the beginning of the world…

    “For even though they knew God, they did not honor (glorify) Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

    So instead of honoring the Creator, man speculated about what the creation had revealed. The speculation was futile and man’s heart darkened. I see a pivotal point here – if he offers thanks to an unknown Creator or gives Him glory in any way – I believe God will show Himself. I don’t see a contradiction in scripture because this is consistent with God revealing Himself and someone turning in faith, but if he turns to something else, less than the Creator…

    “Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.”

    From a position of pride he lessens the Creator to the creation, making Him smaller (less) than He is…

    “Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever, amen.”

    So if man trades his understanding of a Creator in for something less, and chooses to worship and serve something less, then he has moved away from truth.

    Of course this is speaking historically, explaining the degradation of man’s sin and why the wrath of God must come. But somewhere, in the shadows of my mind, I’m wondering about the person chosen before the foundation of the world to be found in Him – who was created for good works – living in a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Animist, Sikh, or _______(fill in the blank) home, seeing the truth in the creation around him, knowing there is still a hole that is not filled within him, and he cries out to the unknown but Knowable God – I’m wondering, I’m thinking the One True God will meet him in that place.

    I don’t know if this is my wishful thinking, but I do know Jesus said He will not lose any of His sheep…all who are His will come. He must have it figured out somewhere in eternity – my limited understanding just might not be capable of comprehending the reality.

  18. 2008 March 22

    Sorry about the wallpaper – I didn’t know how to say it any other way. ;)

  19. 2008 March 23

    Chris – you got my intent wrong entirely – I was not referring to those who KNOW or know OF Jesus, rather those who have never heard of Him or been allowed to consider Him as Go’ds only Son. Such can still enter Heaven IF (and only if) they follow the same Path as Jesus chose while on earth, namely following the Father’s Will totally in themselves, Honouring The Creator – the One, and ‘giving up’ their own life – for His.

    How Christians get to Heaven – i will leave up to God! ;-)

    Like your thinking on this Michelle!

    love <3

  20. 2008 March 23

    Love – I think I understood that. My question really wasn’t about ‘Heaven” (whatever that is?). I was just wondering if you were making that point that a simple profession of faith (an oath) meant anything if at all if there was really no intent to live that faith out, as prescribed by Jesus.

    Michelle- We agree. I just don’t see ‘election’ in quite the same way you do. Unless I misunderstood, you seem to be saying that God chose in advance who would come to him.

  21. 2008 March 23

    Christian, I see lots of words in Scripture that talk about God choosing. I don’t understand predestination, but I see the word used. I can’t take it out – I have no authority to change anything in God’s word.

    He is omniscient – He knows the end from the beginning – He’s not learning as He goes, or surprised by any event on earth (or anywhere) – so I don’t know what to do with the concept other than leave it to His sovereignty…He has it all figured out.

    I see the tension in Scripture – Choose this day whom you will serve – You did not choose Me, but I chose You – Seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness – Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. It’s like a tightrope – I don’t want to fall off on either side.

    Thanks for the discourse – I live for these kind of conversations. ;)

    Glad you like my thinking, Love, I hope I’m not saying anything contrary to the word of God.

    HE IS RISEN!!!

  22. 2008 March 23

    Sorry Chris – i really should know you better by now – shouldn’t i? ;-)
    I had not intended to make that particular point in my comment – I figure it’s so obvious it was not worth expressing (again) but what is blindingly obvious to some is so not so to others, so you are right in poining it out.

    Just saying it and not living it is NOT going to get you anywhere ‘nice’ – here or hereafter.

    Neither is kidding (lying) to yourself that you really are living it when you still badmouth others and feed your ego more than your soul! (no – not suggesting you would – that was a ‘general’ comment, as so many of mine are)

    And that is something i REALLY need to meditate upon now!

    Thank you :-)

    love <3

  23. 2008 March 24

    Christian, you raise some tough questions. I know you were shooting for brevity, but I need a little more background for #5…

    “5.) The doctrine of Hell looks to be un-biblical, certain foreign ideas about such a place appear to have been incorporated into the various translations of scripture:”

    I’m assuming the assertion that the doctrine of Hell appears to be unbiblical and incorporated into later translations is not a conclusion to which you came on a whim. What led you to such a conclusion?

    From a text critical standpoint, you’d be hard pressed to make this argument because the Greek text we have today , though admittedly not entirely perfect, is quite accurate.

    From a biblical content standpoint, you’d be hard pressed to make such an assertion, because the Bible talks about eternal judgment a LOT. It is actually one of Jesus’ favorite subjects, especially in the parables.

    Anyway, the question is in all sincerity and kindness, but I can’t follow the line of thinking at this point because I don’t agree with you on a biblical basis and I don’t have enough background on how you’ve come to such a conclusion.

  24. 2008 March 24

    Got to run – busy today, but here are a couple of links that do a better job of expounding on this than I could:

    http://gospelthemes.com/hell.htm

    http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

  25. 2008 March 26

    Deeply disturbing stuff Chris….I see what you are doing here though!

    R.

    “Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.” – Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night

  26. 2008 March 26
    Jason permalink

    does it surprise you that the unbeliever loves what you are doing here?

    Ashamed of the Gospel. Yes, you are.

  27. 2008 March 26

    “1.) Isn’t it possible, as CS Lewis suggests in Mere Christianity, for a person of another religion to encounter Christ? (such as the centurion that Jesus lauded for having great faith):”

    Can you give a citation as to where C.S. Lewis suggests such a notion? I don’t recall that point (I’m not saying it isn’t there). It seems to me that he was arguing for the existence of God in general on purely philosophical basis. This is a very biblical point of view. Meeting and knowing Christ, on the other hand, I do not believe is a biblical one. This is only enough to condemn us (Romans 1).

    All of us ascribe to “another religion” before we encounter Christ. We may believe in God as a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., or we may fool ourselves into thinking we are not religious. Usually in such cases we are religious in serving our own desires and pleasing ourselves. It is still necessary to place our trust in Christ alone for salvation. There is, however, great freedom, I believe, in the practice of Christianity within contexts where the culture is heavily steeped in another religion. For example, the way a Muslim Christian acts will ultimately look a lot like the way other Muslims act. They will still pray at defined times of the day and without realizing it relate to God in much the same way they always have. There is no sense in making Muslims behave like an American or any other kind of Christian in order for us to accept them as Christians. God’s grace redeems us even from our messy cultures. This does not mean, in my view, that someone who has never heard of Jesus can be saved through their own religion. “No one seeks after God” (Rom 3:12; Ps. 14:1-3).

    I find it interesting that you mention the centurion as an example for this point. He certainly would have been someone who believed in God from a Greco-Roman point of view, but he did not come to know Christ in a vacuum. He met the Lord face to face. One way or the other we need to know about Christ to believe in him. We’ve been left in this world as God’s instruments to introduce all mankind to him. I’m not sure if you are suggesting one can become a Christian in any other way (I’m assuming at this point). Such a position is impossible to support with Scripture in its proper context. In fact, Paul is very clear that one cannot know and have a relationship with Jesus Christ unless someone is sent to preach about him (Rom. 10:13-17).

  28. 2008 March 26

    p.s. You must know that I find much to agree about with you. I disagree with much of what you say in this post, but I admire a number of things I sense to be true of you:
    1) Your desire to communicate to all people that God is a loving God who does not want any to come under his judgment.
    2) Your willingness to ask questions that most Christians ignore because the answer might not be something we want to hear.
    3) Your passion to take the business out of Christianity and live authentic lives that reflect the teachings of Christ.
    4) Christianity isn’t about living religiously for the sake of religion. What’s the point in that.

    Still, I must disagree (sometimes only in part) with you on some of your points on the basis of Scripture. I attempt to do so in all kindness and sincerity.

  29. 2008 March 26

    Hi Rob. Although I understand (and actually agree with) what Vonnegut is saying here, I am sure many people would find his statement offensive. But he is right, we need to question others about God as well as question God himself. Abraham, Moses, Job and others in the Bible are famous for this.

  30. 2008 March 26

    Ashamed of the Gospel. Yes, you are.

    Thanks Yoda. But I think that missing the point, you are. Against the ‘unbeliever’ I have nothing. Like him, yes I do. Talk, we can. :)

  31. 2008 March 26

    Repetitious – thanks. You’ve made me think about what I’ve said and some clarification is in order.

    First – the Lewis quote:

    In the first place the situation in the actual world is much more complicated than that. The world does not consist of 100 per cent Christians and 100 per cent non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name; some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it….Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth many have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non Christians in the mass. It is some use comparing cats and dogs, or even men and women, in the mass, because there one knows definitely which is which. Also, an animal does not turn (either slowly or suddenly) from a dog into a cat. But when we are comparing Christians in general with non-Christians in general, we are usually not thinking of real people whom we know at all, but only two vague ideas which we have got reading novels and newspapers. If you want to compare the bad Christian and the good Atheist, you must think about two real specimens whom you have actually met. Unless we come down to brass tacks in that way, we shall only be wasting time.

    -C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Chapter 10, “Nice People or New Men.

    It seems that you and Lewis are not too far off from each other.

    I think that Jesus as God need not be restricted to only one facet of his potential, which we accept as infinite. I have met Christ through men, women, children; some brilliant, most ordinary, some even mentally retarded. (Like in Henri Nouwen’s book about his friend Adam). I have no reason to think that people in other cultures and faiths are not also meeting Christ in many ways.

    This doesn’t mean that I think their religions can save them. But then I don’t think Christianity can ’save’ anyone either. You cite Paul’s remark in Romans; that one must be preached the Gospel in oder to encounter Jesus. I read those verses as encouragement for disciples to go out and spread the Good News (using words if necessary ;) ), not a guideline for what it takes to be ’saved’. Besides, Paul was not preached to, at least not according to Luke.

    Thanks for the thoughtful words. And the kind ones as well.

  32. 2008 March 27

    Jason said:

    “does it surprise you that the unbeliever loves what you are doing here?”

    Robert says:

    I don’t believe I said ‘love’ anywhere.

    What I like about Christian’s work here is he’s not afraid to hold a mirror up to his faith and admit that just maybe there just might be some things that might be a tad misrepresented in our revered teachings of Jesus as interpreted by Paul or Polycarp or Augustine or Thomas Aquinas or Martin Luther.

    I can only speak from my experiences in Roman Catholicism, but when I look back what I was taught all those years ago, it almost looks to me nothing but a caricature of some mythical and pure Christianity.

    When I hear ‘Christ followers’ expound upon the virtues and the necessity of acceptance what they see is the one and only way to salvation, they may as well be speaking another language. It’s nonsensical to me.

    Some would and will argue that this is precisely the point: I haven’t believed so I shall not see. I cannot force myself to believe anything, nor will I.

    R.

  33. 2008 March 27

    Thanks, Rob.

    Some would and will argue that this is precisely the point: I haven’t believed so I shall not see. I cannot force myself to believe anything, nor will I.

    Is that even possible to do? I am reminded of the arrogant chef who worked diligently to prepare a meal that he believes to be perfect. When some dishes are sent back he automatically assumes that the problem is with the guest; they are ignorant, they lack vision, they have not taste. How could anyone not like it? It could never be a problem with the way he assembled the ingredients or how he seasoned the dish.

  34. 2008 March 27

    It’s not possible. My statement was rhetorical.

    If it’s not possible for anyone to compel or force themselves to give assent to a proposition that must be believed on faith…what then is the freakin’ point?!

    That is what it all comes down to.

    Maybe it’s as the Calvinists say that grace or salvation comes to those God chooses regardless as to whether they would choose it or not.

    It’s all very confusing…

    R.

  35. 2008 March 27

    Rob – I wasn’t questioning you, I was agreeing with you. (You’re probably not used to that ;) )

    You cannot force belief. And you cannot compel faith. But they are too entirely different things. I believe that there is a God, you believe that there is not. Neither one can disprove the other – so why bother? I know of some people, called agnostics who also believe that there is a God. The difference between the their point of view and mine is that, for some seemingly irrational reason, I also have faith in God. Faith as in confidence – a trust. This only comes through relationship and cannot be dictated by book or from the pulpit.

    If God is love (and why not?) then the Calvinist perspective is a misrepresentation of the divine, IMHO. And they are, of course, free to worship as they choose, but….doesn’t the assumption that you have been specifically chosen by God, out of all the world’s billions, to be allowed the privilege of understanding and its following salvation – doesn’t that sound a bit…arrogant? Not on the part of God (that of course could be his choice, especially if we have misread Jesus) but on the part of the self professed ’saved’.

  36. 2008 March 27

    Christian said:

    “you believe that there is not.”

    That’s not accurate. I don’t believe the God as defined by most Christians exists. There’s plenty of room in my world-view for God and if there be one, I’m on record as saying that I bet my soul it’s the God of Jefferson and the rest of the Deists.

    Christian said:

    “doesn’t the assumption that you have been specifically chosen by God, out of all the world’s billions, to be allowed the privilege of understanding and its following salvation – doesn’t that sound a bit…arrogant?”

    It does indeed! So very UN-Christ-like, if I may be so bold.

    If I’m reading the Calvinist doctrine correctly…the saved are the ones who ‘get it’…while people like me the ones who ‘don’t get it’ are not. This smacks of some sort of intellectual or design failing on my part. Doesn’t fill me with admiration of God as He is, by the Christian world view, my creator.

    R.

  37. 2008 March 27

    OK – I had assumed that you were an unwavering atheist. You sound almost agnostic (though labels confound more than anything).

    This failing on your part (and I think more than a few would say on my part as well) that inhibits your ‘getting it’ is even worse, according to that theology. God designed you to either get it or not – you have no choice. You are doomed. Unless this scares you into changing your mind, in which case you were always designed to convert at that particular time anyway. Calvin’s Catch-22. ;)

  38. 2008 March 27

    An ‘unwavering’ atheist….

    There’s an interesting concept….

    I know more believe in Jehovah or Yahweh than i believe in Zeus, Odin, Pele or Marduk…

    So when you really think about it I’m just like most Christians I just add one more name to our otherwise common list of imaginary Gods. ;-)

    I consider myself an atheistic agnostic… Gods as described by most if not all religions today defy common sense and are not consistent with the empirical observations made by science and the reasoned explanations we have for the natural world we currently have. That said, I’m not omniscient or omnipotent. So how can I possibly state unequivocally that there is no God. The best I can do is to say that the God of the literal bible defies reason and rationality….so I’m confident when I say that Yahweh or Jehovah are myths to be taken as seriously Zeus or Allah.

    I’m perfectly amenable to the God of the deists that wrote the laws of physics into the fabric of the cosmos. This is something well within the capabilities of the almighty.

    My greatest interest? If there is a God did He have a choice in creating the Universe? For what purpose? What is the plan?

    The answers I received from the religion of my birth were unsatisfactory to say the least and all subsequent answers proposed by other Christ followers or even followers of other faiths seem to me just the rehashing of old arguments.

    Admittedly, I may never be privy to the answers but perhaps the answers are not as important as the approach we take to finding the answers…

    R.

  39. 2008 March 27

    …Gods as described by most if not all religions today defy common sense and are not consistent with the empirical observations made by science and the reasoned explanations we have for the natural world we currently have.

    Actually I think that most people have a vision of God that incorporates ‘common sense’ along with a desire for a supernatural argument against nihilism. The ‘common sense’ that so pervades religion is this idea that God is very much like us – full of pride, jealousy, anger, vengeance and perhaps a little room left over for love and forgiveness.

    That which defies common sense is the Gospel of Jesus. Elements of this Gospel can be found in many other faith traditions but (just as in Christianity) it is often brushed aside as being ‘unrealistic’. The answers are rarely to be found in religion. Religion goes to great lengths to obscure this nonsensical “Good News”; that there is a Way of rising above our natures – a ’super’ natural way of living.

  40. 2008 March 27

    That’s a great insight!

    No wonder you piss off Jason so much. ;)

    R

  41. 2008 March 27
    Jason permalink

    - “Good News”; that there is a Way of rising above our natures – a ’super’ natural way of living.”

    Welcome to health and wealth, you and the Mr. Jakes, two peas in a pod, gettin yer-best-life-now on.

    Thank you for presenting more insight to us so that we can understand your gospel and how it differentiates from Jesus’.

  42. 2008 March 27

    I’ve come to understand that it’s not that I (or you, Rob) piss him off so much as he just can’t resist making the ad hominem argument.

    No fan of Mr. Jakes or Mr. Osteen, Jay. Nor the health and wealth gospel. In fact it has no bearing upon this conversation. As for differing with Jesus, I am merely trying to cut out some of the chaff left by those wise middlemen that Rob alluded to. Open eyes, open mind. Free thinking is really not such a bad thing.

    Gettin’ that best life now, yes indeed. That’s what following Jesus can do, especially when you begin to leave religion behind.

  43. 2008 March 27

    Mr. Osteen I know…total tool…Mr. Jakes, not a clue.

    I have to side with Christian here…

    Seems to me that Christ’s message was quite simple and it took 2000 years of old men trying to twist and contort it’s simplicity to muck it up.

    R.

  44. 2008 March 27

    Rob, Christ’s message to the simple-minded is simple – to the not-so-simple minded, not so!

    Did God have a choice when he made the Universe… which one of the Infinite Universes would that be then – exactly?? The one you Live in? Jason’s? Jesus’s?? mine?

    With all science has done in the last 5oo years or so – we still are NOWHERE near close to understanding where and how we all Live! Science is only in the last 20 years or so beginning to grasp anything like the complexity of’ this’ ’simple’ Universe.

    Perhaps in another thousand years they just MIGHT have some kind of ral and accurate idea about Faith and Belief as it appplies to us human beings.

    Jesus ‘got it’ – can save a hell of a lot of time. :-) Your free to do with yours (time) what you want – and get whatever result you ‘prefer’.

    Do you believe in cause and effect?

    Love <B

  45. 2008 March 28

    Perhaps I should have said Cosmos….

    By that i mean all that is…

    Not just what we can perceive with our senses and our instruments.

    We are getting very philosophical here. ;)

    R.

  46. 2008 March 28

    Can’t have that. Must stick to concrete ideas, answers and solutions.

  47. 2008 March 28

    Sorry I’m late to the discussion. Here’s my responses:

    I wonder where many of you stand on these issues.
    1.) I believe anyone can encounter God, so encountering the Christ is certainly a possibility. Is it essential that the person realize (and verbalize) that they are encountering the Christ? I’m not convinced this is an absolute requirement.
    2.) Does the young Hindu boy encounter God? Acknowledge God? Does it matter that he has a different understanding of God that we do?
    3.) I don’t think there is a way for anyone, Christian or not, to realize their own salvation. But that would depend on what you mean by ‘realize’ – if you mean “know they are saved” – then I would say the person’s knowledge is limited to their understanding of salvation.
    4.) [These 10 questions are assuming a particular response to the previous questions. This makes it difficult to answer the questions.] I believe God desires all to come into relationship with Him; He’s provided the ways/means for this to happen; I’m fuzzy on the ground-rules, what He “counts” or doesn’t “count”; and I’d prefer to think that God has very generous interpretations (read: mercy) when it comes to applying His standard.
    5.) You don’t actually pose a question here. Implied is whether I agree that the doctrine of hell is biblical or not? I’m not comfortable with eternal punishment; so I hope that there is a ‘way-out’ clause somewhere. Jesus’ recounting of Lazarus and the rich man seem to paint a picture of eternal separation, and that alone is suffering enough in my book.
    6.) God says it is so; who am I to disagree with Him?
    7.) Again, there is no question posed here. Jesus, Paul, and the apostles seemed to understand that restored relationship with God transcended any (all) religious forms.
    8.) Still no question posed here. Jesus did indeed seem to not have much time or patience for religious pursuits particularly systematic (dogmatic) following of any set of rules/standards as a means to gain/maintain/keep salvation.
    9.) Yes, the message of love is the key element of the Gospel. We are taught that we are to have first a loving relationship with God, other followers of God, and finally everybody else. I don’t know if that’s the hardest message to digest – certainly it is the hardest to follow. Someone aptly said we settle for “lovers less wild…”
    10.) I don’t believe the essence of the Gospel is to avoid the ‘fire and brimstone’ or to otherwise get “fire insurance.” What is sorely missed by so many attempting to follow Christ/God is that they reduce the following to some systematic (and thus manageable) formula for keeping in good standing. This keeps us in control of our destiny, and that is ultimately the most profound SIN. When we realize and understand that any amount of “right” living is simply beyond us; that God does not grade on a curve; that we are hopelessly lost in the sense of saving ourselves; and that God in His mercy loves us anyway – despite ourselves; and we acknowledge this and put our trust in this, that is when we are truly free.

  48. 2008 March 28

    OK, Bad. They weren’t all formed as questions – the title of the post was misleading. Sheesh!

    But thanks for taking up the challenge. I can’t say that I disagree with you very much, if at all.

  49. 2008 March 28

    Sorry – it’s just what I do (nitpick).

    It’s scary that we are in agreement…maybe it’s because I’ve read McLaren’s book?

  50. 2008 March 28

    hey – you may want to check out the thread at this link:

    http://potomac9499.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/an-open-question-to-all-believers/

    …and get into the fray.

  51. 2008 March 29

    Remember Netprophet , earlier in this thread? I thought he was a clever spambot? Well he’s not. I can’t figure out what happened there- but anyway here is the link to his very nice websites. (he is also a culinary guy)

    http://netprophet.wordpress.com/

    http://ezgourmet.wordpress.com/

  52. 2008 March 30

    Good Q&A. Lots of the problems with liberal/progressive theology is that is presupposes that God is OK with us as long as we don’t hear about and then specifically reject Jesus. But that isn’t the Biblical model at all. We have a problem: We are sinners in need of a Savior. Jesus is that Savior.

  53. 2008 March 30

    Thanks, Neil. Weclome.

    He sure is. But which one of the seven or eight types of savior that the church has identified is he? And if he is one, does that preclude that he might be another? What I mean is this; we shouldn’t be so enamored of the Atonement or Ransom theories of the incarnation that we risk trivializing that fact that Jesus was a teacher, that he had something important to say (aside from ‘personal salvation’) and that if we profess to follow him we should actually attempt to do so in all areas.

  54. 2008 March 30

    Amen re. that if we profess to follow we should attempt to do so in all areas. My concern is that it needs to be a first-things-first approach. Jesus didn’t just come to tidy up the law and give us a list of good deeds to do. I think we should emphasize the sin problem and solution first. If you truly trust that Jesus is God and your Savior, it sure seems logical that you’d want to do what He says. We won’t be perfect at it, of course, but there oughta be some fruit.

    I suppose some people focus exclusively on the salvation thing but never get around to works, but I find that to be the exception rather than the rule. The people I know focused on evangelism tend to be more active in giving and serving as well.

    But I see many focus on the “good teacher” parts and never get around to the salvation message. They also tend to be the ones that pick and choose what scriptures they think are “real.”

  55. 2008 March 30

    P.S. Cool blog layout and header!

  56. 2008 March 30

    Thanks Neil. At least someone appreciates it. :)

    But I see many focus on the “good teacher” parts and never get around to the salvation message. They also tend to be the ones that pick and choose what scriptures they think are “real.”

    I see that as well (esp. with the old mainline protestant denominations), but I have seen way too many churches that are very inwardly focused. I am not talking about evangelism here, I am talking about just plain old consideration for one’s neighbors – other Christian denominations, other faiths, other nations and perhaps especially our enemies.

    I agree – we must first focus on Jesus and the way his word first effects change in our own hearts. But I think that we must not wait for the conversion of a person before we attempt to help them in other ways. The church shouldn’t delude itself into thinking that Jesus remarks to the Phaisees and scribes will quite well in regards itself.

  57. 2008 March 30

    “But I think that we must not wait for the conversion of a person before we attempt to help them in other ways.”

    Excellent point. We’ve been in a study of Acts and noticing how there isn’t one specific formula for reaching people. There are plenty of things not to do, of course, but we can reach people in different ways. I think when the church operates as it is supposed to (or the best it can) then people will be drawn to it. I imagine that many sought the message of the early church when they saw how different (in a good way) the early Christians were.

  58. 2008 March 31
    Richard permalink

    Poor Adam, Eve, Noah, Mrs. Noah, Moses and all the Old Testament gang. Spending eternity in Hell for they did not know Jesus.

  59. 2008 March 31

    Hi Richard – not sure how you came to that conclusion. Care to elaborate? You might want to look into Abraham as an example: Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

  60. 2008 March 31

    I think Richard brings up a good point though. Apparently, according to the Old Testament, there is another way to salvation that does not expressly involving knowing Christ. Is this other way expressly reserved for those people we have come to know through scriptures; Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, Elijah and Elisha etc.?

  61. 2008 April 1
    Richard permalink

    It’s 3AM and I don’t have the benefit of Captain Morgan at my side but I shall continue anyway. I don’t know the bible. I know the stories and I know about Jesus. I believe the both Jesus and God, His Father are Love. Teach me this wiser ones than I. Do you think that maybe God gave us diversity? We have chocolate AND vanilla, yum! We have Allah, Buddah, Mohammed, Ram, Ganesh, Krishna and Doonesbury (well maybe not Doonesbury). If all we had was vanilla, where would we be? How would we feel? Maybe God gave us a variety to instill conversation about religion. Maybe God gave us diversity so we would have more than just vanilla. Maybe God cries when people do narrow minded things in His name. I think that if I can LOVE MY NEIGHBOR, I can make God smile. And I mean LOVE MY NEIGHBOR as it is stated precisely in the Bible. Not Love My Christian neighbor (not you specifically Christian) or love my neighbor who believes in Jesus but LOVE MY NEIGHBOR. There are no caveats to this in the Bible. If you are going to believe the Bible specifically as it is written, then we must love every soul on earth whether they believe in Jesus or not. By the way, I love you!

  62. 2008 April 1
    Richard permalink

    So how does this connect with the topic? There are many rooms in my Father’s house and there are many doors. Jesus is one…

  63. 2008 April 1

    Ah, I think that Richard has just pointed out the elephant in the church sanctuary. Or perhaps (since he is ‘unchurched’ and not steeped Biblical exegesis or systematic theology) he has pointed out that the Church is indeed, naked.

  64. 2008 April 1

    Richard, I am not a wise one, but I do believe what the scripture tells me. We agree the Son and the Father are Love, and if I love them then I will love my neighbor as well, whatever his belief.

    My only exception is in many doors – Jesus said there is one way in – and He is the door, the sheep enter through the door – those who come in any other way are not true shepherds (teachers or leaders of the flock). You can find this teaching in John 10 – great stuff, there.

    Blessings all!

  65. 2008 April 1
    Richard permalink

    Does that mean that there was NO door before He was born?

  66. 2008 April 1
    Richard permalink

    A child is baptized at 6 months old but dies shortly thereafter. Damned to Hell?

  67. 2008 April 1

    Gosh, you ask all the tough questions. You, know, that’s the problem with legalism – raises all these questions so we have to come up with new rules to explain things. The reason why a child is baptized as an infant (which is IMHO a little silly to call it a baptism as the child can not make a conscious decision to follow anybody yet) is because people were afraid that those who had yet to be baptized would burn in hell. But those babies who were stillborn, they alas must spend eternity in Limbo. So rest assured Richard, the baptized 6 month old baby is safe.

    I don’t know if anyone believes this stuff anymore. Vatican II got rid of Limbo in the early sixties. George Carlin said that he hoped that they promoted all those babies – that they weren’t just cut loose into outer space.

    Michelle, if Jesus is the Son of God, God Incarnate and the second person of the Holy Trinity – isn’t it possible that this door he is talking about, although very narrow in what it will allow through, might have different names on it? Like the multiple language signs we see all over international airports; salida, sortie, uscita,выход,έξοδος,出口,출구,saída,uitgang – they all mean ‘EXIT’. God certainly is multicultural.

  68. 2008 April 1

    Wow! Very tough questions yet I think they can be answered biblically. I gave an attempt earlier on with the discussion on Romans 1 – I believe the Bible teaches we all have the internal and external witness of God, the Creator. And depending upon if we recognize Him in worship, does He reveal Himself more fully – possibly through a vision, or a Damascus road experience, or a Philip that wanders onto the Ethiopian (wasn’t that the story?)

    Does He look like Buddha or a Hindu god or goddess – I don’t believe so because of His clear word that He will not be found in any form of an idol – that lessens who He is – He cannot be ‘contained’. That is taking the incorruptible and making Him into the form of the corruptible, isn’t it? I don’t believe He is Allah either. Ask any Muslim if YHWH, HaShem of the Jews, is Allah and they will tell you “NO” – which is why I believe we have had this earthly battle between civilizations. But Jesus? He called Himself I AM – that is why they took up stones to stone Him. What is done in the heavenlies is worked out on earth – in some mysterious way.

    Do I believe He will make Himself known to a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or whatever? Yes, if it is His will to do so – He can do anything.

  69. 2008 April 1

    Do I believe He will make Himself known to a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or whatever? Yes, if it is His will to do so – He can do anything.

    Yes, that’s more along the lines of what I mean, sort of what Lewis talks about in his essay on comparing cats and dogs. http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc32.htm

    I don’t think that Christians worship Yahweh anymore. How we look at God today is completely different than how the Jews ever looked at Yahweh. I think that God can be and is Yahweh, Allah and Jesus. I also think that God can be the many avatars of Hinduism – sacred symbols – not idols. And the Great Spirit of Native American tradition. (Gasp!) And Bohisavta and Confucious and Rabbi Hillel (among others) have all done God’s will and preached elements of Jesus’ way. Just as Christian teachers have preached elements of Jesus’ way. It seems that no religion has yet to put all the components together in a way that satisfies everyone.

  70. 2008 April 1
    Richard permalink

    “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

    What did Jesus mean by YOUR God?

  71. 2008 April 1

    “I don’t think that Christians worship Yahweh anymore. How we look at God today is completely different than how the Jews ever looked at Yahweh.”

    I think this is probably where we differ. I remember hearing my whole life that “the God of the OT is not the God of the NT” – but I beg to differ. I see in His many names – Elohim, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Roi, El Olam, Jehovah-nissi, Jehovah-jireh, Jehovah-raah, Jehovah-rapha, Jehovah-shammah, Jehovah-shalom, Jehovah-tsidkenu, Jehovah-mekoddishkem, Jehovah-sabaoth, Qanna, … that Jesus is the fulfillment on all of these characteristics. (understanding that the word Jehovah is the English transliteration of the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH)

    So … I believe we do worship YHWH – we just don’t realize it this far away from the early church (first century). Jesus declared Himself as YHWH whether or not I can understand it.

    That’s my thinking…as limited as it is.

  72. 2008 April 1

    Richard, I’m not sure if you were asking anyone or Christian in particular. My understanding is that He was quoting the shema “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is One.”

  73. 2008 April 1

    So … I believe we do worship YHWH – we just don’t realize it this far away from the early church (first century).

    No, I agree with that statement. But who we worship today, so far away from that time, would be unrecognizable (IMHO) as YHWH to most Jews. You don’t see many Jews in our churches do you? ;)

  74. 2008 April 1

    No, we sure don’t. I think we’ve done a terrible job teaching the pure word – but then – it is the “time of the Gentiles” – whatever that actually means…

  75. 2008 April 2
    Matt permalink

    I’m also chiming in late… Richard told me I should check this one out.

    I pray that we can all look at our “Gods.” For the record, I believe in One God, which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you disagree, okay by me, but it’s not okay by God. That’s not why Jesus died for us.

    A pastor once shared with me his view on many other religions… that it was interesting how Zeus was created to look like a superhero (minus the cape and thong); Buddha is most famous as the potbelly bald monk (in impoverished, supermodel thin countries); Ganesha, an elephant idol, was first carved out of wood and worshiped; the list goes on. Matter of fact, you can buy your very own holy deity on EBay for under $50- with shipping included (keyword: Deity, currently 231 items for sale)! The common thread is that all these Gods were created by man to explain life, make sense and give hope but THEY WERE ALL CREATED BY MAN (not the other way around).

    For me: trying to know the mind of God is futile. On one hand, we have all these questions… we’re human, it happens. On the other hand, “lean not on your own understanding” because God is omniscient and we are narrow minded and ignorant.

    Have faith in the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit. Pray on behalf of the baby and the “lost” that the Holy Spirit would move in them. Love all as Christ loves us. Then, if you are still concerned about the salvation of the lost, and those who “don’t know Jesus,” let’s do something about it. Let’s go forth and make disciples of all nations, huh?

  76. 2008 April 2
    Matt permalink

    BTW: Kudos to Michelle for diligently letting the Bible speak for itself.

  77. 2008 April 2

    Welcome back Matt. Good to hear from you.

    Zeus was created to look like a superhero (minus the cape and thong); Buddha is most famous as the potbelly bald monk (in impoverished, supermodel thin countries); Ganesha, an elephant idol, was first carved out of wood and worshiped; the list goes on.

    But haven’t we done the same thing- with our pictures, statues, movies and tee-shirts of Jesus? Haven’t many Christians made the Jesus of Revelations into a kind of ’superhero’ as well? The thing about Christ is that he seems to be dynamic enough that followers will relate to him in a number of different ways.

  78. 2008 April 2
    Jason permalink

    I looked back at your earlier avoidance of my, you are correct, ad hominem (but accurate) representation of your gospel-for-your-better-life variety of legalism, and this endorsement of Christ abandoning pantheism startled even me.

    “I am merely trying to cut out some of the chaff left by those wise middlemen that Rob alluded to. Open eyes, open mind. Free thinking is really not such a bad thing. ”

    Chaff like Christ’s words, chaff. Yes you can deny that they are there, or just ponder them and hope that they go away, or look to some example of a way-out-there pesher of “You shall have no other gods before me” or just decide to temporarily suspend any rules of hebrew or greek grammar so that you can just make up what that says, but all you have done here is to endorse the wide path.

    You will reply that Jesus came to show us how to live, which is anything but the gospel. The gospel is never framed in imperatives, there are imperatives given to disciples of Jesus, that is those who would testify to their trust in Christ alone if asked, the gospel is always framed in indicatives, like, “it is finished” or 1 Cor 15. A fact quite outside of you, a fact which Jesus tied incredibly tightly to Yahweh, in whose disposition you are constantly expressing disapproval.

    You have endorsed the wide path, which you do over and over, all roads lead to happiness, yes, you do. You perpetually define those on the narrow path as those who do right in your eyes and your definition always leaves any definition of testifying clearly to the singularity of Jesus Christ way, way out.

    Always. You will occasionally testify to Christ, but only in a “that’s ok for me, but it has no bearing on you.” same old relativistic mush. Never speaking the indicative truth of the gospel, which is, Jesus Christ redeemed his people on the Cross and by his resurrection assured eternal life. You never, ever press this as a fact, only something which gives you goose bumps. You have abondoned the gospel.

    You make disciples of Christ, C, not approve of the behavior of those who deny him, which is your standard of Christianity.

    And as I have said before, you always, always, always, make behavior the definition and cause of salvation. See your simplistic take on Matthew 25.

    Perhaps you have missed it before, but this is legalism. Behavior is neither the definition or cause of salvation, for no one can obey perfectly in heart and mind. Your sadness over the artifical boundaries of your previous church belies your own extra-biblical boundaries.

    I challenge you to find one passage in which redemption is cause by behavior, which is the nice-people-in-all-those-other-religions pantheism which is your discipleship model. Once again, Christian, open the bible and have just enough courage to actually read what it says.

  79. 2008 April 2

    Matthew 25:31-46

  80. 2008 April 2

    Although I never said, nor do I believe that redemption is earned. But, obviously Jesus has some expectations of how we should behave and places the importance of that even above calling him Lord.

  81. 2008 April 2
    Jason permalink

    it’s a start, but the context of this thread, and the majority of your current work, is related to salvation or eschatology. Is Matthew 25:31-46 meant to address that or not? If so, let’s start looking at it.

    If salvation is not earned, upon what is it based?

    Lastly, please provide evidence that the word says behavior is more important than calling Him Lord, and then, if you can, explain how that is anything other than earned redemption based on what we do.

  82. 2008 April 2

    I think that though my ‘work’ and this thread may be related to salvation and eschatology, it is not devoted to it. It is really devoted to how we, as Christians, relate to and interact with those who are not.

    I think salvation is based upon God’s infinite grace and mercy, as well as his love and sacrifice, as shown on the cross.

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 7: 21

    Again, salvation is based upon God’s love for us, what we do should be based upon our realization of this salvation.

  83. 2008 April 2

    If you want to know the Truth and how to know GOD and how to be acceptable in HIS sight, just read the Holy Bible.

    It doesn’t mince words that some people will have eternal life in Paradise and that others will suffer eternal damnation, which sounds really terrible when Jesus the Christ says ‘there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Jesus said the most important of the 10 commandments was to love — Matthew 22: “34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
    35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
    36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
    37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
    38 This is the first and great commandment.”

    The LORD said it was the great, not the only commandment — there are other important principles GOD gave for living an acceptable life before HIM and HE knows that when you first learn to love without restrictions (imagine loving a GOD you cannot see, hear or touch in the traditional sense), abiding by the other commandments may be easier (and you can’t love your GOD and other people, if you don’t first love yourself).

    And Jesus the Christ said so many times in the Gospels that the only way to attain salvation was to believe on HIM. If you can’t or don’t believe that Jesus the Christ was the Son Of GOD and shares the same Spirit with His FATHER, then He too will deny you before the FATHER who is in heaven.

    And one of your questions mentioned above concerned those who have never heard the Gospel and who die — what’s their eternal fate? It is written “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” as GOD said to Moses. Also consider what GOD told the youth Jeremiah when HE called him to be HIS prophet, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-6)

    It seems quite possible that GOD has already numbered HIS people, some already are, and some soon will be.

    In Jesus’ final prayer before being seized by the state, He prays first for Himself, saying ‘FATHER, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify YOU.”

    He then prays for his disciples whom GOD had given Him saying, ‘They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.”

    He then goes on to say, ‘I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.’

    And finally, Jesus prays for His future believers saying, ‘I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their (the disciples) word: that they all may be one…”

    What I am saying with all of this is that GOD already knows who believes HIM and who denies HIM. If someone dies without having heard the Gospel, I can’t imagine the LORD does not know about it (but remember, Jesus promised that He would not return again until every nation in every corner of the world had heard the Good News).

    There is no middle ground with the LORD’s Word. You either accept it as it is or you deny it…and when you start making exceptions or ignoring certain parts of the requirements for salvation, you have denied HIS Word already.

    You should read about the ‘lukewarm’ church Jesus the Christ describes in Revelation (there is no middle road)… you’ll see what kind of followers He finds acceptable and those who need to work out their salvation.

    As for finding GOD in nature or Jesus in other religions… when you look at others and all that is around you, it is GOD’s creation you see (the hand of GOD) — not GOD HIMSELF, that would be idolatry. There is only one Jesus the Christ, so if a religion is talking about Jesus the Son of GOD born into the world of a virgin named Mary, who died, came back to life, ascended to heaven and will one day return — then yeah, they’re talking about the same Jesus that told Peter to build his church called Christianity.

    It’s a rough road to hoe, but you can’t make concessions. Jesus didn’t, so follow Him.

  84. 2008 April 2
    Jason permalink

    “It is really devoted to how we, as Christians, relate to and interact with those who are not.”

    I don’t understand. Isn’t your whole entry at the top of this thread about various interpretations and teachings? I know you say that it is a matter of how we relate but you have so many pet doctrinal projects, and much more often than not devote a great deal of time to insubstantially, usually via homespun parables – i.e.: straw men – critiquing multiple biblical teachings, I just think that you saying this is all about community is disingenous. The do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do escape hatch.

    “as shown on the cross.”

    So the cross is an expression of grace and mercy, not the means of grace and mercy? And if so doesn’t that mean that God could save his people without the cross? Did anything actually happen there other than the only rightous person who ever lived being tortured and murdered? I know I have asked it before, but you have never answered and now there is a whole new bunch reading your stuff, so is what you said above the sum total of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

    Your quoting of Matthew 7:21 doesn’t support your assertion that behavior is more imporatant than calling him Lord in salvation. It only speaks to the absence of certain works in some who may call him Lord. Does that mean that they call him Lord, and he really is their Lord, and yet they do not do what he says? This of course is unlikely, as John hammers in his gospel and his epistles (yes, I know, they are way down on your hermeneutical totem pole). Is it not more likely that their testimony does not match their actions?

    As an example dealing with a causative look at the matter of the works which Christ says we are to do is Eph 2:10. Those works are prepared beforehand, and the execution and very attention to them is predicated on justification having occurred beforehand.

    No matter your caricatures of on these pages of highly academic strains of biblical Christianity, the reality is that I can’t think of one faithful teacher who does not teach that the one who endures to the end wil be saved, but the endurance is not based upon works, the endurance is the result of having been justified, like Romans 5:1, the hinge for all the promises of Christ, that peace with God, which comes by grace through faith in God who saves (a mystery to those who came before Christ, but nevertheless, as Job even in the midst of not understanding it, my redeemer lives). Romans 3:25 indicates that the only reason God put up with sin at all was because that the cross would, to those who believe, cleanse them from their sins and bring them to everlasting life. God indeed saves, but he does it by and through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not because he just lets stuff slide off his back.

    As I have affirmed literally dozens of times, the works corrective, of which you are a part, in current teaching is biblical and greatly needed and appreciated by me, decisional regeneration theology had nearly ruined American strains of Christianity. But there is not one verse of which I am aware which speaks of works as causative of salvation nor as more important than the fact of loving the Lord your God with everything you have and trusting his ability and design to save through Christ. The one above does not indicate importance, it only indicates a lack of action in those who assert the lordship of Christ, but obviously, per John, he is not their Lord at all. Just as with Matthew 25, nothing about the language makes works salvifically imperative, only indicative. But if you can find any verses which demonstrate this, or if you think I am totally wrong, please, proceed.

    The gospel is presented as a fact of history, that Christ died for our sins. Believing the gospel is repeatedly taught to be the starting gun on what is said to be a lifetime of obedience. Perhaps you are saying that one can lose salvation, even though it comes by the power of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The idea that his death was an expression of his love is presented, but it is a distant third in substance and volume to dying for sins and taking on himself the wrath of the Father.

    “salvation is based upon God’s love for us”

    This can mean either nothing or everything. You must be able to more clearly deliniate this.

    “what we do should be based upon our realization of this salvation.”

    I’m not sure how this pertains, either. This idea certainly is present in Hebrews, and I would not at all dispute its stand-alone veracity, but how that goes towards evincing or helping us to understand, “how we should behave [being of greater] importance [than]…calling him Lord” is uncertain.

    Perhaps return to Matthew 25 since you feel that it lays this out so well.

  85. 2008 April 2

    Welcome, lavrai. Thanks for joining in.

    The LORD said it was the great, not the only commandment

    But didn’t he say that it summed up all the other commandmens?

    There is no middle ground with the LORD’s Word. You either accept it as it is or you deny it…and when you start making exceptions or ignoring certain parts of the requirements for salvation, you have denied HIS Word already.

    Is it that simple? No middle ground? Off/on, black/white, hot/cold? Would it only be like that. But we have 2000 years of examples where people who call themselves Christians, who call Jesus ‘Lord’, cannot agree on precisely what he said. We also have millions of people who are in various stages of their journey with God, some near, some far. That’s why we talk.

    Does that mean that they call him Lord, and he really is their Lord, and yet they do not do what he says?

    Precisely. Or they say that they choose to follow him but then they choose not follow his teachings. Which is tantamount to not really accepting him as lord at all.

  86. 2008 April 3
    lavrai permalink

    CHRISTIAN:

    You said: But didn’t he say that it summed up all the other commandmens?

    Yes, that’s what the LORD says in that particular verse…but are you implying that Jesus the Christ meant that is where we are supposed to stop?

    It is written in Matthew 19: Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

    So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    He said to Him, “Which ones?”

    Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    So, Christian, do we still stop at love and ignore the other commandments Jesus the Christ said we are to follow “to enter into life?”

    As for your comment: Is it that simple? No middle ground? Off/on, black/white, hot/cold?

    The Holy Bible, the Word of GOD Almighty, indeed makes it that simple. When you read that section in the Book Of Revelation I recommended, then perhaps we can really talk. Here is what Jesus says about those who are not either hot or cold, but are lukewarm, you know, not black or white, but gray:

    “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.”

    Does that make it clear to you? And I notice that you seem to reference the world when trying to prove your points or support your opinions. How is that the world has a say in the things of GOD?

    I leave you with this, friend:
    Matthew 15:8-10 – ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

    Beware of the leaven of men…who may turn your heart from GOD.

    -http://www.lavrai.com/blogs

  87. 2008 April 3

    “Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”….So, Christian, do we still stop at love and ignore the other commandments Jesus the Christ said we are to follow “to enter into life?”

    I think Jesus’ point here is that if we have love, as defined by God and not by our egos, we will ‘naturally’ be following those commandments that we struggled with obeying before. You are right, we are to follow him, do as he commands us, if we want to realize the abundant life that God has given us, the life that comes from repenting or our sin, the eternal life that begins right now, not just after we die.

    Although I agree with what you say, but couldn’t it be construed as a ‘works’ based salvation by some who are committed to Luther’s doctrine of Sole Fide?

    As far as Revelation goes, I have read it many times. You see it differently than I do – the lukewarm church is the one which is fixated on selfish concerns of personal salvation and ignores the more difficult concerns of Christ- that of an active faith that looks towards the well being of all God’s children. They honor Christ with their lips, their prayers, their hymns, their creeds but their heart is not with him, they have no heart for service. And their leaders teach doctrines that perpetuate this.

    This man made Gospel, cooked up for over 2000 years of religious idolatry infects the faiths of millions. just as leavening spreads from host to host.

  88. 2008 April 4

    lavrai –

    If we truly and completely loved the way Jesus commands us to love, there would be no other sin. It’s not so much that the rest is ignored, it’s more like the rest simply becomes a non-issue.

    I think of it like this: Jesus told us the two most important commandments, that is to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves. He also gave us a new commandment – to love one another. If these are the three most important commandments that we are called to follow, and we don’t do them right or completely, why in the world would we focus on any of the other/lesser commandments? We’re not getting “graded” on total effort, nor does God “grade on a curve.” I will spend the rest of my life focusing on achieving perfection in these first three commandments; I don’t have the time nor the inclination to settle for less.

    Here’s two analogies along these lines:

    Bank tellers are trained to detect counterfeit money by touching and handling real money. They handle real money so much that when something fake crosses their path – they know it’s not real.

    There are many ways to approach growing a healthy lawn. One requires running around and killing/spraying/removing every weed that crops up. Another approach focuses on growing healthy grass, and in doing this there becomes no room for weeds to crop up.

    Healthy grass == love.
    Weeds == sin in our lives.

    The attention to love as the first and foremost commandment, while not dismissing any of the other commandments becomes a matter of emphasis, or perhaps it’s semantics. Love first, and you won’t be doing all the other things. Focus on all the other things and you WILL miss the opportunity to love.

    Make sense?

  89. 2008 April 4

    Double A-Absolutely!

  90. 2009 October 26
    ANonfundamentalistChristian permalink

    1.) Isn’t it possible, as CS Lewis suggests in Mere Christianity, for a person of another religion to encounter Christ? (such as the centurion that Jesus lauded for having great faith):

    Christ appeared to people of varying religions in his own day–to Jews, and to Romans who were most likely pagan. However, that isn’t saying that Christ could appear in another religion (with a different name and face). Christ was a physical person at one time–it would be impossible for him to be another. Also, Christians acknowledge that while there are a great many prophets, there is only one Son of God, so no, I don’t think Christ could appear in a different religion (besides, I think if Christ were at the centerpiece of a different religion, that religion would by definition be Christianity).

    2.) What about, for example, the fate of a young Hindu boy, never having encountered a missionary or a Bible:

    The Bible says that God’s law is written in the hearts of men, so the above response is incorrect. The Bible says that some people instinctively know the truth in their hearts. Basically that means if his heart is in line with Christian ideals, that God will forgive him (because there are many who haven’t heard of Christ–how can you punish someone for not knowing? But knowing and rejecting are another story).

    3.) So then there is no way for someone, who is not a Christian, to realize their salvation?:

    That’s up to God to judge. Not knowing is different than rejecting–people who reject make a conscious choice and are responsible for the consequences, while people who don’t know may have agreed and followed Jesus if they had heard. It all depends–is the love of God in your heart, or are you focused mainly on yourself?

    4.) But that does not seem to be consistent with the picture of the Father, a God of love, as revealed through Jesus’ ministry here on earth:

    God is a god of love, and he has given us a choice. I’ve heard it said that a loving God could not condemn any to hell, or that hell is for people who choose to separate themselves from God. If so, why was it necessary for Jesus to die? Kind of trivializes his crucifixion, if all are saved. So while it is true God is loving, he gives us free will to make choices, knowing what the consequences are. His request is actually very simple–believe in my son Jesus, and try to then live out God’s love. You may fail and that’s okay, because no one is perfect. But you have to believe (that is what will save you, because Jesus’ death makes up for your sins) and you have to try to put that belief into action (otherwise you’re just saying you believe–if you believe with your heart, you can’t help but try to spread God’s love).

    5.) The doctrine of Hell looks to be un-biblical, certain foreign ideas about such a place appear to have been incorporated into the various translations of scripture:

    I hate to say this, but the previous responder was right–you have to look at the Gospel of John. Jesus mentions being condemned if you don’t believe, many times.

    6.) How about divine revelation through creation? Can’t someone know God through nature?:

    God is of course present in nature, and nature is a great way to see the beauty of God and admire the mysteries of the world. Science is another way (very similar to nature). So nature is the first step often in revealing God, but then it’s up to a person to explore the God they find. And who wouldn’t want to know what a God who made such an intricate world is like?

    7.) When we talk of the Christian religion, Jesus knew of no such thing. He was a practicing Jew that demonstrated what living out God’s law looked like. Even, Paul, in his letters, never lost sight of the fact that he himself was Jewish and one of his great challenges was how to instruct others into welcoming the Gentiles into a Jewish faith community:

    Paul was of course a Jew. I’m not sure what the question is here but Christians come from a variety of previous backgrounds. If the question is about if one has to be Jewish to be Christian, Peter and Paul had this very debate and Paul won–he said Christianity was for everyone, and that there was no need for Gentiles to convert. Basically Gentiles were free to keep their customs as long as they believed in Christ as the messiah and believed in his message.

    8.) It seemed that Jesus spent much time speaking out against religion, particularly those doctrines that were so rigid that they tended to obscure the spirit of God’s law:

    Yes, in some places he did and this is where I believe fundamentalists err. There are 2 ways to read the Bible: as the literal inerrant word of God, or not. Even literalists say that the inerrancy is in the original text–all translations contain errors or miss some of the meanings just because we can’t translate all the connotations of the original words (both due to language inabilities and not knowing additional historical connotations).

    So not all Christians (in fact the majority) don’t read the Bible literally. But I think almost all Christians will concur that certain messages or meanings are strung throughout the Bible. So while it’s really easy to argue about 1 sentence, it’s harder to disagree if it’s promoted time and again in the Bible.

    9.) But isn’t Jesus’ message of love and forgiveness the real ‘meat’ of the Gospel? Although described by some as coming from a ‘fluffy and cuddly’ Jesus, isn’t this message the hardest to digest? Just look around; is anyone truly following him?:

    Yes, Jesus’s message is love–but it isn’t loving aimlessly. It’s loving him in appreciation of the sacrifice he gave for us, love of God, and love of one’s neighbor because we’re all God’s creations. I’d say many Christians (most Christians) DO follow that. The sign-holders and haters are a small minority, but very vocal. Don’t be fooled. Real Christians do lots of acts of love that aren’t recorded by the news, and most are actually very nice people.

    10.) What about those people who are turned off by fire and brimstone rhetoric? Perhaps we are doing the Gospel a disservice by being so confrontational;

    Yes indeed. Fire and brimstone is one technique used to make people aware of their sins–unfortunately I think it just turns people away from Christianity. I think Christians need to show more of the love and the hope they receive from being a Christian–after all the early Christians travelled from place to place just sharing, not forcing, their religion. And Christians, including myself, feel like it is Good News and wish to share that promise of love and hope with others only because it makes us very happy, and we wish to share that happiness (wouldn’t you, if you found The Answer to How to Be Happy–and it’s essentially free?). It’s up to you if you take it.

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