Enemies at the Gate: Christian Intolerance
Your Jelly Fish version of Chrissianity (sic) is well documented…great job “coverting”(sic) souls to Christ with you gummy bear Jelly bean Jesus version of the Gospel! You guys are well defined by this little piece appropriately called “Back Rubs 4 Jesus” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=mohixsVRNdc ) Ha! That suits your sweet, sweet, candy cane Chrissianity (sic) just fine! What a farce! Chocolate Soldiers every one of you!
This was a recent comment on an article I wrote about the largely negative consequences of extolling a gospel of hell and damnation; http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/intimacy-not-intimidation/#comment-1209
There were other more reasoned responses, some of them even suggesting that my position may be exaggerated, but I think the digestion of this one particular remark is the proof of the pudding. Although this fellow’s ‘ministry’ is a little over the top and would garner little sympathy among many of us, his wording is not really that outrageous. I find it to be similar to what has been expressed by many conservative Christians.
There seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea of remembering Jesus primarily as he has been portrayed in the Gospels. Many of the arguments I hear say that the image of Jesus found in the Gospels, the patient, loving, peaceful and tolerant peasant, fond of little children and the lame as well as lepers, prostitutes and thieves, represents only one aspect of God. There is also God the punisher, the wrathful, the one who hates sin to such a degree that he cannot tolerate sinners. It is said that this picture of God can be found throughout the Old Testament as well as in John’s Revelation. I personally don’t see this vision in scriptures, but nevertheless, I don’t believe that this is the real reason why so many are fond of this stern and vengeful depiction of God.
I think this attraction stems from an ingrained need for people to identify with a group and the accompanying urge to keep those who do not conform outside of the tribe. A sense of insecurity pervades many churches, a fear that the flock will be corrupted by the sin of others. In practice this makes it easier for us to ignore some of the deeper meanings of Jesus’ teachings; those about unconditional forgiveness, love, mercy and tolerance. We often find it easier to accept Levitical exhortations against homosexuality rather than Jesus’ command not to judge others. (Matt 7: 1-2) [For more thoughts on why we have this tendency towards conformity check out this thread on 'Suddenly Christian' ; http://johnshore.wordpress.com/2007/09/21/why-must-others-be-like-us/]
We pay lip service to our slogans welcoming everyone to our churches, becoming gate keepers instead. When we forget that our churches are made up of nothing but sinners we find ourselves taking pleasure in our own salvation, even cultivating a sense of pride in our privileged position with God. We learn to notice those characteristics of the ‘saved’ versus the ‘unsaved’ and find ourselves, perhaps unconsciously, avoiding those who do not meet what we believe are God’s standards. We forget that God loves the sinner, the pagan, just as much as he loves each of us within the church. If he can find value in our lives, working through us and with us, what makes us think that he is not doing the same with them?
Though told to go out into the world and feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the imprisoned, we tend to restrict these activities to our fellow church members. Perhaps just the idea of membership is the problem. Our churches take on the character of Coast Guard rescue vessels, our pastors at the helm while the rest of us serve as crew. We gallantly ply the treacherous seas of this world, searching for souls that need saving and hauling them on board. Not a bad analogy, perhaps, until the ‘saved’ realize that unless they agree with the captain’s theology or the crew’s uniform standards he may find himself tossed into the drink once again. It is easy to find yourself shunning the sinner when your theology tells you that God considers them fuel for the fires of hell.
How did we get to this point where we have “captains’ manning the helms and steering us into waters that appear to be Biblical yet turn out to be dangerously shallow? Why do those of us who claim to have met the risen Jesus feel the need for the guidance of generation upon generation of authoritarian pastors, vicars, priests and bishops? Could it be that a man-made hierarchy within the church contributes to the “common sense” that there is also another hierarchy; that of the churched versus the un-churched, the saved versus the un-saved?
In the second century, Irenaeus, Bishop of Gaul and student of Polycarp became alarmed at the lack of cohesiveness within the early church’s theology. He took it upon himself to identify those teachings that were false (heresies) and had a tremendous amount of influence over what became today’s canon as well as much of today’s church doctrines and dogmas. Although not everything he taught has been included in common church doctrine, much of it was first enunciated by him, including the idea that scripture was divinely inspired. Some of what we find most controversial to this day is grounded in his personal theology. http://www.lessonsonline.info/IRENAEUS%20OF%20LYONS.htm
One of the greatest challenges that he faced was how to go about establishing the authority that he (and other church leaders) needed to mandate what was truth and what was not. With this in mind he was able to find biblical and historical justification for “apostolic succession”; the idea, for example, that John the Apostle (allegedly) taught Polycarp who taught Irenaeus and so on and so forth. Once his authority was established those that disagreed with him were labeled as heretics and expelled from the congregation. No dissent, no compromise, no question was tolerated. Unfortunately, this is the model that the church chose to adopt. Elaine Pagels, in Beyond Belief notes that, like our clergy of today ” Irenaeus promises that he will explain for them what the scripture really means and insists that only what he teaches is true”. This stands in stark contrast to the type of discourse that can be found in most synagogues, where the rabbi and congregants remember how Abraham and Moses would question God, even getting him to change his mind on occasion.
Jesus challenged the religious authorities of his time; with their policies of excluding those who did not meet their standards of righteousness. He did not seem to be interested in establishing a new religion in his name but instead on shaking things up for the religious status quo. When asked, he tells people to follow his way, to be like him. He says that all of the law hangs on the commandment to love God and love each other. He tells us to love our enemies. He says that those who feel hate for anyone at all are at great risk. He says that the world will know that we are his followers by our love. He says all these things and then he hangs out with hookers and thieves. He tells one thief that he will take him to paradise, no strings attached. He embraced and healed lepers, who were thought to be guilty of terrible sexual sins.
This new religion, Christianity, soon became something that was rarely identifiable with the example of Christ. When weak they were persecuted by the Romans and displayed the strength one finds with God’s grace and mercy. Upon becoming strong, the church took on the role of persecutor and those dissidents that suffered at their hands now took on the role of Christ crucified, dying for what they held to be the truth. Today there are those who seek God but because their sin is seen so differently from many others they now stand outside the gate. If Jesus would invite them in, who are we to keep them out? Perhaps more importantly, what human has the authority to demand such inhospitality?










Have we erred in establishing and maintaining a Church Heirarchy?
Do we perpetuate that error by not choosing to follow Christ’s example and give up all worldly wealth and possessions and just walk from place to place spending time with all we happen to meet and sharing what we have learned about God with them ( ‘healing’ them) and learning from them (did Jesus ever learn about God from others – those he minsitered to??)
Is anyone today as qualified to do as Jesus did as Jesus was? Do any of us have such perfect knowledge of Our Father?
How would we achieve such knowledge today?
Hey lwkut, thanks for all the great conversation. You keep my wheels turnng.
Christ did ask the young rich man to do just that; give up everything and follow him. He knew what most obsessed this man and what was holding him back.
His immediate entourage did this as well. But there were others that he did not require this of – Nicodemus and Mary and Martha.
The early church as found in Acts took on a very communal aspect. That being said, even Paul kept his tent making business goiing.
I don’t think the command to give everything up was in order to benefit others “the poor” who had less, for that would only be a short term solution. Instead he wants us to be free of the encumberments of society, throw away those things that enslave us. Ghandhi understood this when he turned India into a nation of spinners and weavers, freeing them of the economic tyrrany of the British.
I think Jesus did learn from others. Initially it appears that his ministry was directed only to the Jews. Later he expands his ministry to include everyone. Remember the lady who asks Jesus for just a few crumbs from his table, comparing herself to a family dog? In some subtle way she seems to be rebuking Jesus for being intolerant and insensitive.
Did God learn what it was like to be truly mortal, truly man with all the pain and suffering when he becaome incarnate? There are some theologians who think this makes a lot of sense; that God learns with us. Of course if everything is pre-ordained then this idea is nonsensical.
Oh, one more thing. You ask if anyone is as qualified as Christ, I guess, to make decisions about the Father. I would guess not, based upon the fact that he is a pure representation of the Father. But he does tell his disciples that they would go on to perform even ‘greater’ things than he has.
While we’re talking about the rich young ruler… Even though this guy lies to Jesus’ face multiple times and even though this guy values his own comfort above all else including helping the poor and knowing God — scripture tells us (reminds us?), Jesus looked at him and loved him. (Mark 10:21). I did not find this Jesus of love until I started reading the bible for myself at age 38. It confuses and frustrates me when Christians feel compelled to disciple the lost.
Excellent point Ric. Although this fellow chose not to sign on as required, Jesus did not condemn, reprimand or chastise. He ‘loved’ him even as he turned away. How often do we do that?
Christian,
You prove your tirelessness everyday…
What a remarkable amount of energy in you – mixed with a high degree of erudition.
Like a man somewhere near the middle, trying to hold the world with two good hands…
Poetman
Hi, Christian – one thing we can tell for sure – the comment of official street preachers has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature and example of Jesus Christ!
Regarding the poor, I do think Jesus gave a great deal of time and energy to caring for the poor and outcast, even though all earthly solutions are “temporary.” Rich or religious or powerful people talked with him if they sought him out. But he sought out the ones regarded as most reprehensible by the religious elite of his day. His conflicts were not with “sinners”, but with the most religious, especially over their preference of religion over compassion.
Looks like you may have attracted some of the same trouble. It’s a good sign!
Best wishes,
Monte
Right on Monte. I agree, Jesus does tell us to take care of the poor and the afflicted. The parable of the sheep and the goats tell it all. I was saying that rarely does Jesus tell us to give it ‘all’ up and when he does I think it is more for our own development, not necessarily for the benefit of the poor. Thanks for chiming in.
Jesus did not ask anyone to bear his burden and carry his ‘cross’ – it was a roman guard who made someone else bear it for Him.
Jesus said I am the Way and left it up to us if we chose to be as He was. Many who would wish to be so could not bear the thought of losing all they currently ‘have’ on Earth to wander the Country and just preach salvation face to face.- Is there any chance for those such as ourselves?
Are we being hypocritical calling others to God given our unwillingness to be as close to Him as JC and the 12 were?
Are we willing to look with the eyes of others at our own works and deeds?
Should we perfect ourselves, or at least remove the beams from our eyes fully before speaking out?
Big C – this is not meant to be in any way negatively critical of you or your fine blog – but if i can act as a sharpening device for a friend, i consider myself to be doing good : ). If i can ask the questions that need to be asked by us all us ’sinners’ (sin in the sense that at times we turn ‘away’ from God – even when we may think we are facing Him directly) then ditto.
You neoevangelicals are one step away from the Bush doctrine of Unitarian/Universalism!
You would do well to subscribe to the weekly radio broadcast of the MOODY CHURCH where Dr. Erwin Lutzer preaches BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, something you are greatly lacking!
Yesterday, Dr. Lutzer preached a message titled “The Sin We Rationalize”
Sunday, October 07, 2007 The prophet Habakkuk wrote, “O Lord, your eyes are too pure to look upon evil, you cannot tolerate wrong.” Sin: it is such an affront to a holy God that He provided redemption at the price of His own Son’s life. Yet, all too may Christians tolerate the sin that God cannot tolerate. Today, we will find out why.
So why don’t you liberal neoevangelicals get busy and get an education in BIBLICAL PREACHING!
You would do well to listen to Dr. Lutzer’s PREACHING on the necessity of making righteous JUDGMENTS!
Some of his recent messages are:
Judging Character
9/2/2007 – Sunday In a recent poll, seventy percent of college students admitted that they cheat. The upcoming generation says they want to see integrity in politicians and national leaders, but they do not place a high value on their personal integrity. D.L. Moody said that “character is what a man is in the dark.” Today, we will learn to discern integrity…in others, and in ourselves.
Judging Conduct
8/26/2007 – Sunday Movies, social drinking and dancing…in the past, Christians avoided all these drawing a sharp line in the sand on what was appropriate behavior for a believer. Those days seem all but gone, which raises the question: what is a valid standard for Christian conduct?
Judging Neo–Paganism
8/19/2007 – Sunday In days past the occult was obvious, and Christians stayed away. Nowadays paganism is central to the culture, and we encounter it at every turn.
Judging False Prophets
7/22/2007 – Sunday The Bible warns us that false teachers would arise in the last days. Whether we are in those last days or not, there are false teachers and false teachings everywhere, broadcast on radio and TV and proclaimed from our pulpits. Now, more that ever, we have got to face the issue of discerning truth from error. Today: you will learn about a framework for judging what you hear
LISTEN TO Dr. Erwin Lutzer’s messages online at
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Moody_Church_Hour/archives.asp
You make some good points, Ruben. But I’ll bet that if you survey the students in a Bible College you may get the same response. It’s been highly publicized by both the evangelical and secular press that there is not much real distinction in practice between Christians and non-Christians. I think a study of history will show that there never has been.
When we try to adhere to the law we are destined to fail miserably. We may focus on our own personal striving for holiness and in the process ignore a brother or sister in need. We may commit ourselves to social change or acts of charity and neglect our own spiritual edification, our study, our worship, our prayer life.
Only by ‘putting on the mind of Christ’ can we step off this crazy rollercoaster while at the same time enlarging and strengthening our faith, learning to serve Jesus and our fellow man.
Phillipians 4:4-9
Thanks for the links. I’ll check them out.
I’m with you LWBUT. This whole exchange makes me uneasy.
There is a constant effort in Christianity to put God in a box. Some boxes are hard and rigid, others are soft and cushy, but either way He is bigger than that.
There are no longer Pharasees. The closest thing today are the sects of Judaism that evolved from the Rabbinic Jews of the second century.
Today the term is used in a judgemental way to condemn those who oppose a specific view of Christianity; typically conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists. The fact is that Jesus was not so much condemning thier adherance to the law, but their denial of Him. Failure to see the forest for the trees so to speak. Last I could tell even the most hardened fundamentalist (Ruben..) acknowledges Christ as the Messiah and Saviour. That’s the basis for thier message. This disqualifies them as Pharisees.
LWBUT said it well when he mentioned removing our beams before speaking out…
Ahh. but then there would be nothing but silence. We can never remove our ‘beams’ but we can be aware of them when encountering others. There is a major difference between disagreement and judging, which is what Jesus was speaking about.
There is some sort of circular reasoning going on here; when we infer that a position against intolerance is intolerent itself. It reminds me of the conversation that I am having with lwkutg on another thread; can we suggest that God is hate if he detests hatred? That dog don’t hunt neither.
I realized that I became a ‘Pharisee’ only after I had converted to Christianity (before then I didn’t really know the term). Technically speaking it’s not a 100% accurate description but practically speaking it works. I became more interested in the letter of scripture than the spirtit. I was also very much interested in how I was stacking up against other Christians. I was quite certain what was ‘right’ and what was ‘wrong’ with the actions of other individuals. Now my outward focus is more on our corporate actions, as a church. That being said, in many ways that I am not aware of yet I am surely still a Pharisee, certain ‘beams’ blinding me to my own faults.
Hey guys…
I see all points of view here as pretty similar or at least complimentary. There is validity in examing our own faults before we speak and yet none of us would be able to speak if we examined our faults.
I really think that the issue here was more to do with the intent, the pharisees of the time saw themselves as the “elite” the “true” leaders. even above the law, cause they had their own that was better. their intent was always for their own betterment. Christian I don’t see this in you, so I can’t see you as incapable of “speaking” because of your own faults. I would see somone in this conversation as having the intent of truth and Godly wisdom and love. We will fail at that. We will have faults, but our passion is Jesus.
If our passion is to judge and condemn even in the name of Jesus, than our log needs to be evaluated! Sometimes, I wish that log was in the mouth instead of the eye
Ooh, boy.! You got that right, Brent. When I think of just a tiny fraction of the remarks I wish I could take back……
How’s that instruction go?
1.) Open Mouth
2.) Insert foot
At first I found it to be rather unpalatable but with time I aquired quite a taste for it.
Don’t be so certain of ‘negativity’ Big C!
‘We can NEVER remove our beams…” ???
Sure a great big hunk o’ wood in your eye makes it a little hard to look too closely in the mirror, but that’s what all your friends here and in your church are for – to help you chip away at it and to more clearly reflect your ‘mistakes’
– with the hope that your iron can do the same for them!
Lets all work on reducing then removing those ‘beams” (for they are many) we may not be perfect tomorrow – but we can be a little bit better!
Some times all it takes is to ask for God’s aid.
Of course there are times when some darn hard work is required too
OK, OK. Perhaps I should have said “may never’ instead of ‘never’. But I would suspect that there are more beams in place than we have the time for. In fact, when we get to the point where we can safely say that all beams have been removed we have just stuck the biggest one right back in.
Are you 100% certain of that?????
If we take pride in the fact and ‘forget’ to keep walking the narrow path each day we live, then, perhaps!?
Our Soul is eternal and only has one physical body in our lifetime. If it is eternal it existed before our earhtly body did.
It also has total recall.
We can access that knowledge in our life on earth if we seek it deeply enough within us.
We ‘build’ our beams from the day we are born. With the help of our Soul in combination with Jesus’ Spirit we can begin to deconstruct them all – if we work hard enough at it and at no longer building any new ones.
How about instead of saying ‘may never’ we say ‘It can be possible to…’?
Nope, not gonna cave on this one. To assume that one’s self has no character defects is a character defect itself. Pride. No man was wtihout sin, no man is truly righteous (or so says the Bible) except one. Jesus.
Although I think that John Wesley assumed it was possible to reach that level of sanctification. But I doubt if someone at that stage in life would be conscious of this. Let not your left hand know your right, and all that.
lwbut: A couple of thoughts – first, sure, no one forced anyone to carry Jesus’ cross, but he did say “And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.”
And second, I’m not convinced the evidence is good to back up the idea that “eternal” suggests our souls pre-exist our bodies. Remember, eternal is an English translation of a Greek word; capturing the essence of it is difficult. And, when we are “born again” we receive “eternal” life – if we always had it, if it had no beginning, it’s rather meaningless to suggest we just received it. The word we have may actually be more like “everlasting.”
Christian, the more I think on this post, the wiser it seems. Re-capturing the example of Jesus as the main element of our faith is soooo critical. Thanks! Keep saying it!
Thanks, Monte. I strongly agree. You know, when I began to drift away from fundamentalism I was warned of treading the slippery slope. But that’s what I see happening everywhere in the church. It is so easy to rationalize away Jesus as the centrality of the Christian religion. We emphasize his message on Sunday and in conversation but we marginalize him in just about every thing else we do. It’s such an easy slide into legalism.
To assume that one’s self has no character defects is a character defect itself.
Absolutely – especially given the wealth of contradictory evidence, not the least in your case!
I never said we shoudl assume that – I said we had an eternal ( everlasting – ty Monty) Soul. I DID NOT SAY WE ALL-WAYS listen to it or act according to IT’s wishes!!!
Surely it is obvious to anyone we don’t?
What i said was we HAVE one (and that i don’t believe being born is what creates it!!! – God creates it in agreement with Our Soul) I said if we TRY we are able to listen more closely to it and even Learn from it.
Even learn things from before the Birth of our physical body.
I think Jesus learned to stay in constant contact with His Soul and thus ensured that He only did His Father’s Will as the Soul follows God perfectly.
Most of the humans on Earth have not followed Jesus’ example!
That is not to say they cannot do so with constant hard work and effort on their parts and with the help of the Grace of God and their own eternal Soul which is a part of the Holy Spirit..
Did that let you hear me any clearer?
Oh – before you ask or get confused…
If we have a Soul then why can’t we follow it and be more like Jesus – do God’s Will?
That’s because we also have ( build) an EGO – This IS ‘us’ from the day we are born and dies with our physical body.
IT convinces us that we should really do best by listening to IT and not that whiny goody-goody-little far away sneak of our ‘conscience’ – our Soul’s Voice.
The really tricky part is – there is not just ‘one’ ego.!
It is manifold and ‘folds’ itself over and around aspects of our Soul which ‘deafens’ us to it.
We are constantly building more of our ego and tearing a bit of it away. The more we focus an the teachings of Jesus the less we have to ‘build’ with and the louder our Soul becomes in our mind’s ear as we tear more of our ego away.
Caving in yet?
I am in agreement about the ego being an impediment to our salvation. Brennan Manning paints a picture of an impostor that we begin to create in infancy, a false persona that we wear, constantly working this ‘character’ until we no longer can tell who we are. Jesus comes into the picture, reminding us of our real identity, and he helps us to, often painfully, often slowly, tear this costume into shreds.
I’ll take that as a ‘yes’! then?
…and as for broadening ‘your’ metaphysical horizons…?
I Live to Serve!
We are in some agreement over where JC was going with the leavening thing – but just because words have one meaning does’t mean they cant have more! JC was a master of that – or at least those who quote him seem to be.
You may be interested, as I was, to learn a definintion of ‘leaven’….
Leaven
(1.) Heb. seor (Ex. 12:15, 19; 13:7; Lev. 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.
(2.) Heb. hamets, properly “ferment.” In Num. 6:3, “vinegar of wine” is more correctly “fermented wine.” In Ex. 13:7, the proper rendering would be, “Unfermented things [Heb. matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders.” The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is “a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion.” The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Lev. 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Num. 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Cor. 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matt. 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matt. 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Cor. 5:7, 8).
Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary
For some reason point 1. above made it clear that the Pharisee’s leavening was a corruption of the ‘original baking’ that would leave a ’sour’( seor?) taste in the mouth.
And you can read that to mean whichever meaning you want it to!
Whaddya know?
Just as i was proof-reading my last comment it struck me…
JC at the last supper!
It was Passover!
NO leavening of any kind was permitted during this Jewish festival.
Jews may have had and enjoyed baked ( risen) bread but you can bet your bottom sestertius it was NOT on the table then!
Anything else i can help you with my Friend?
First off, dude, you are on the wrong thread. The bread thread is next door.
Aside from that, there is historical evidence to suggest that the bread used by Jesus at the Last Supper was risen bread in that this was not actually the Passover meal, but a preparatory meal. This is just one source that may be of some help here:
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/po-eat.htm
Anything I can help YOU with my friend?
Nice try Blue Eyes!
After my mind finished boggling over that scripture lesson only ONE thing was clear – Jesus did not eat the Passover Lamb and hence the 1st seder of Pesach ( I have a good friend who claims to be Jewish and loves to cook so I dig some of the lingo)
since He was in the tomb at the time.
Even if it was legal to eat ‘risen’ bread i doubt Jesus would touch the stuff Himself as He would not despoil himself eating dead ( not Not Kosher – food that was actually ‘dead’) food as His Body was a temple to God and He would only eat living food His Father supplied – fruits, nuts grains etc that could all be capable of springing forth life out of it..
Before my catastrphic harddrive crash of Aug 07 i had a list of the foods Christ recommended eating ‘in their season’ of the region – it was all fresh and very ’spartan’ He was not big into ‘party favour’ type foods.
Ummm… probably – You could help me with many things but i am not actually questioning anything at the moment….?
Oh! unless you can give me a quick ‘pass’ to receive the Holy Spirit? I do tend to struggle with that a fair bit but i get the feeling that’s something I need to work on myself??
Don’t tell me you are an advocate of the “What would Jesus eat” movement? Where in scripture do you get the idea that risen bread would be considered by the Jews to be desecration? Ever try eating a hot pastrami on Lavosch?
Yeah, I’m sure that ‘pigs in blankets’ were not on his list of favorite menu items, but there would be figs, dates, olives, honey, goat, lamb and bread and the occasional ‘fatted calf’. A typical Mediterranean diet.
Prior to passover all leavening must be removed from the possession or domecile of the devout Jew. Of course this implies that outside of that time leavening agents (yeast) and risen bread would be present.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Passover/TO_Pesach_Home/Isaacs_Leaven_717.htm
And then there are the leavened first breads, the “hafrashat challah” that were traditionally set aside for the priesthood (Numbers 15:17-21). For Jesus to use leavened bread in this way adds more significance, as he has become our high priest and we have become the “priesthood of believers.”
Besides, Big But (is that really what you prefer?) unleavened bread usually tastes…..somehow lacking. And as it was consumed to symbolize Jewish separation from Egyptian culture do we need to make that culinary sacrifice ourselves? Unless we are Jewish, I mean.
Big C!!!
I gave you the Big BUT moniker in private ( because pretty much anything i say usually comes with a big ‘BUT…” after it!
) now you spread it here for all to see?? ( Does my But really look big in this???)
And would you PLEASE stop putting words and leavened bread in my mouth… when did i ever say JEWS would consider leavened bread ‘desecration’????
Jewish Kosher laws remain largely a mystery to me and i don’t follow them personally ( i have nothing against those who do by way of their desire to be closer to God) I know they’re largely reported in the Bible OT but i don’t believe risen bread was considered as desecration to them?
What i actually said was ( and you are right this thread should be ‘next door’ but i’m here now ( there’s my but again!)) that I think JESUS would not put anything in his mouth for ‘food’ or ’symbolism’ that was actually killed ( like by the baking process in a very hot oven), but would follow Genesis for His diet.
He did His Father’s word not those words given to the Israelites to teach them how to find God.
Get the difference?
You are equating our Lord and Saviour with the high preists of the ‘Godless’ Israelites? or Christians with believers in the Law?
Does this in any way seem right to you?
I am in no way an advocate of the ‘What would Jesus eat?’ ‘movement’ (although it is a legitimate question if we are to ever truly follow Him) and before anyone out there starts i am well aware of the significance of the ‘it is not what enter a man’s mouth that defiles him’ arguement – Thank You!
I merely beieve from writings by EB Szekely ( can’t remember which book but i can find it if you’re desperate? ) that Jesus preferred to eat Living Food for His earthly body than the dead stuff the majority of us settle for because it tastes so good ( to our Earthly despoiled palates) – cool?
I tend to think He would most likley give such knowledge to His Disciples too but it would be up to them if they followed Jesus or the Kosher food fashion after their kind and traditions.
Do we wish to be a slave to Jewish tradition in answer to your last question? Or follow more what Jesus had in mind?
And yes i am perfectly aware how, to the ignorant, i could appear to be anti-semetic (and of course therefore Anti-Jesus since He was a Jew) here but just because i don’t see any reason for me to follow thier ancient and long-held traditions personally doesn’t make me hate them for doing as God ‘commanded’ them once.
Neither do i believe that merely because Catholics ensured it (Kosher food laws) remained in our Bible that we need to follow them today! If we don’t have something – dare i say better? – else in mind, that is.
and for your information… Sure I love the taste of freshly baked bread and eat wholemal mass produced dead stuff out of convenience and habit – sad ain’t i?
I know that sounds hypocritical of me but I am not claiming to be the new messiah or that i follow Him as closely as i could. I am all too human. i just have knowlege i can apply and can point out to others who may wish to listen to some good advice – their choice.
A q? Have you ever investigated much of the Dead Sea Scrolls history, works, and the writings of those who have??? I beleive there are other sources than the Bible for information ( reliable) on Our Lord and the History behind some of His Belief and circumstances that surrounded His formative childhood years.
Relying upon just one basic ’source’, or forming opinions from those who do can be so – one-sided sometimes.
Sometimes those with a vested interest in the outcome can find ways to remove from popular consideration that which lessens ‘their’ case!
You may like to ponder upon that a time – if you have not previously?
1947 was a most opportune year. Few today recognise the significances in our modern world.
I took this conversation over to the original thread:
http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2007/10/16/bread-and-wine/#comment-1556