Shoot the Messengers (Why Fire and Brimstone Preaching is Evil)
In what is often seen as the most famous sermon in American history, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” (1741) Jonathan Edwards paints this vivid portrait of our Father in Heaven;
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.
Jesus told us to spread the Good News. He told us that people would know us by our love for one another. Jesus was a man of forgiveness, peace, compassion, non-violence – love. When asked what God the Father was like, he told his disciples that because they knew him they would know the Father, that they could see the Father by seeing him. He called our Father abba, or daddy.
Of course, God the Father is not a man in flowing robes with long curly blond hair, light complected and with blue eyes. (Neither was Jesus) But you get my point. And we should get Jesus’ point as well. The only part of the Father that Jesus could reveal to us was that of God’s nature, his ‘personality’. He did this through what he said and more importantly what he did, especially what he did for us on the cross.
So why have we had to endure the terrifying and vile language of those such as Edwards and his spawn? Of course, Edwards was not alone. Many, perhaps most, leaders in the Christian (and Muslim) church have preached of hell and damnation. The medieval Roman Catholic church was so obsessed with God the torturer and inquisitor that they nobly and piously followed his ‘example’. At the First Great Awakening (1730-1740) there was a great upsurge in Protestant fire and brimstone rhetoric which has lasted to this day, though there have been those who have long stood apart from this philosophy, such as the Quakers.
Rabbis Michael Shevack and Jack Bemporad, in a book called “Stupid Ways, Smart Ways, to Think About God”, have coined the phrase “Marquis de God”. They suggest that he’s regarded by many as the ‘proverbial God of wrath, ready to show how much he cares by punishing you, the Marquis de God, despising sinners so much he exterminates them”.
(Not very long ago there was a church convention being advertised on the radio, a convention devoted to discussing the qualities of hell. Somehow their researchers had determined that the fires of hell burned at more than 2,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit! Yet no one would die in those flames, they would merely burn like candlewicks for all eternity. What type of monster is their God?)
But where do we get these crazy ideas? Even more importantly, why do we embrace them?
I don’t believe it is because of anything that is expressly stated within the Bible. Many of these hellish concepts are not biblical in the least, having been tacked on throughout the ages. I have heard many say that this is the result of a natural tendency on our part to project ourselves onto the nature of the deity, subconsciously endowing him with all the malevolent characteristics that we naturally abhor in ourselves and others. But, I think it is more sinister than that.
Throughout history there have been leaders – pharoahs, kings, queens, presidents, dictators- who have been more than willing to stretch the truth beyond any rational breaking point merely to maintain their rule of authority. This is a natural tendency of man and we know that power will almost always corrupt the powerful. Jesus’ message always stressed the strength in our weaknesses, our brokenness above the whole and strong. Yet the Church has always had a way of forgetting that particular thread that runs through the Gospels and even the Bible as a whole. The Church becomes strong and rules the rulers of the western world. Even after splintering into 10,000 limbs that live apart from each other, each individual denomination strives for dominance over the others. Our leaders become popular, powerful, rich and famous, bending the ears of millions as well as those who rule those millions.
Like all leaders who begin to doubt their abilities to govern based upon the merits of their philosophies, they inevitably resort to fear as the primary incentive for loyalty. In the past the Church has used the threat of horrifying torture, both in this world and in the next, to keep people in line. Protestants generally have relied solely upon the threat of eternal torment in the after-life(although they have been known to burn a heretic or two themselves).
“As the souls of heretics are hereafter to be eternally burning in hell, there can be nothing more proper than for me to imitate the divine vengeance by burning them on earth.”
~ “Bloody” Mary, Queen of England, 1553-1558
Today the stick is still used more often than the carrot. Sure Joel Osteen and friends preach the Gospel of prosperity, but they are only using reverse psychology. If you don’t do things their way you will not only miss out on prosperity but you will very likely remain mired in the trap of poverty. Even some elements of the liberal wing of the Church have found success in using scare tactics to meet their agenda, using the threat of global warming to frighten people into embracing a socially active Gospel.
To what good is it to preach the Gospel if we are not at least trying to live the Gospel? And how are we living the Gospel, how are we emulating Jesus, when we bully and scare people into turning towards God? How many of us, because of this style of ‘evangelizing’ know the message with our heads but not by heart?
When it comes to spreading the Good (or the Bad) News it would appear that the messenger may actually be the message.











Hi,
I was reading your blog and I love what you have to say to people about hell and who God really is. I think if people simply believed who he says he is, there would be an amazing transformation take place.
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Here-Here. I was speaking to a Christian who believes that his individual sins have to be punished. He could not get around the idea that Jesus’ death paid the punishment for all sins–and that a pay-as-you-go system was how God works.
Even Roman Catholics do not believe that the atonement was ineffectual. I once read an explanation by a Catholic theologian who said the death of Christ was sufficient for sin–it is the individual need for restoration that is at the center of the mass–a cycle of contrition, confession, and communion.
Nowadays, I am walking away from the whole idea of God’s wrath. Not that our actions are free from concequences–but back to the wonderful argument that says, “How can a God of love punish those whom He loves” with hell.
How can the lack of a decision for Christ during a 70 or 80 (or less) period of time cause a God of love to condemn His creatures to an eternity of fire and brimstone?
I am not saying that life is free of Divinely originated consequences, but that our wrong decisions and sins generate sufficient problems in themselves. Why bring fear of hell into the equation if such a thing does not exist?
Ambrosia
Yes. I think it is too bad that so many believers think that this is the best way to share the Good News. What good news is this?
“Hey, you are depraved, destined to burn in hell, and unless you listen to me (trust me I am right here) , repent for your sins, accept Jesus as God, Lord and Savior you will find yourself up the creek.” Now I can see where this may generate a little ’success’ among those suffering people who have no faith, but does this work with other non-Christian religious people?
And if we can accept this premise, that fire and brimstone teaching is not part of Jesus’ ministry, then in this regard those who preach this doctrine are not following Christ. Yet they succeed in having many people follow them.
Are these types of preachers the false prophets that Jesus warns us about? They are quick to brand anyone who breaks from the current evangelical wisdom as a false prophet. It could be another case of the first being the last.
Which Jesus are you talking about? The same one that beat the buyers and the sellers out of the temple? The same one the called the Pharisees, a generation of vipers, the deciples a faithless and perverse generation, his enemies hypocrites wicked and adulterous?
God is a God of love, but he is also a God of Wrath. His word is clear. Romans 1:18-28 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth”. . . . “therefore God also gave them up” (v.24) . . . “God gave them up” (v.26) . . . “God gave them over to a debased mind” (v.28).
He also says the soul that sinneth shall die. Revelation 20:13-15:states that every man would stand before God and be judged on the deeds done in their life and all who’s name was not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
What you are preaching is inclusionary. Everything goes, because his blood paid it all. There is no great sin that God’s grace is not sufficient to forgive, but he said that those that stood before him and said we’ve done great works in your name, God said depart because your work was of iniquity.
Last few scriptures, 1 Peter 4:18, if the righteous scarcey make it in, where shall the sinner and the ungodly appear.
Psalms 9:17, the wicked shall be turned into Hell and all nations that forget God.
ISA 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world.
To teach people that they are not in danger of Hell if they don’t live as God commands, that is worse than evil. Maybe the way they delivered the message in the past was pretty harsh, but in reality, how do you try to keep kids from doing drugs, by painting a vivid picture of the dangers or drugs and what it does to the mind and body.
There is no longer a pergutory and no one on this earth can pray you out of it. Only God’s saving grace and your turning away from the sins of the world will save you from it.
Go ahead and believe that he is an all fogiving God. I’ll take my chances in knowing that God hates sin and even the Liar won’t tarry in his sight.
God Bless you and study the word not the word that man gives you.
But isn’t that what you are doing as well, Alfern? Which translation do you use? How accurate is it? What parts have been left off, what parts put in?
Did you come by all of your exegesis on your own? Or were you led by parents, pastors, teachers even authors? Like it or not, the opinions and interpretations of men about the Bible have shaped the church as we know it today. They have shaped your views as well.
We project ourselves onto God, make him into our own image, when we make him out to be bitter and proud. We thirst for ‘justice’ and since we cannot forgive we cannot accept God as all forgiving. We feel compelled to attach some strings to his love.
I respect your right to hold an opinion and appreciate your good intentions,. But based upon your comments, I think that it is you that have strayed from the truth of the Gospels. One essential theme is clear; God forgives all, including you, Alfern. I don’t think I need to cite scripture at this time. You can’t miss it. A Dios, brother.
Yes he does forgive, but do you actually believe that there is no Hell, or that there are no consequences for sin?
If the cross paid it all and no one is going to Hell, why do we go to church, why do we give offerings to the church and to help the poor?
I can keep my money, stay at home, and because Jesus died on the cross for my sins, I’ve already got life eternal because he’s such a loving God that he has no place of damnation for me.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, I am serious in my question to you. I know of other’s that have gone the way of the inclusionary Gospel and it’s frightening that people are believing that there is no consequence for sin.
I am a product of the church, my father, mother and grandmother as well as myself were bearers of the word. I’ve seen great miracles in my lifetime and I that is what encourages me to stand on my beliefs.
Thanks for your response.
Alfern, I am not ‘inclusionary’. I beleive that salvation is a gift from God and because he allows us free will (which is an essential element of love) we are given the right of refusal. So I think some may (or even will) choose damnation.
If to be damned means to be removed from the presence of God and if God is everywhere then when someone is damned he must be ‘nowhere’ – annihilated. After study I do not see the doctrine of hell as biblical, nor do I see it as being in keeping with what we know of God’s nature as revealed to us through Jesus. I beleive that his mention of Gehenna and Sheol is to illustrate the very, very undesirable outcomes of poor choices.
Out of love, love for each other and love for God.
Thanks for your response and letting me share your blog. I agree with you about our free will, and what we do for others is out of the love of Christ we should all have within us.
I would be curious to know what studies you’ve done to come to the conclusion that Hell is not biblical. I always like to research other’s thoughts and ideas on things.
But as civilized grown-ups do, I want to agree to just disagree with you on Hell.
You said “IF” to be damned means to be annihilated. There is always such a problem with the word “IF”. We can almost never know for sure. At least not until the time comes. Then and only then will we know for sure “IF” Hell is real and not a state of mind, “IF” God is all merciful and won’t condemn sinners to a burning lake of fire.
This has been real conversation, I’ve checked some of your other blogs and was quite interested. Thanks for your time.
You make a good point about the “IF”. Although what I have written is what I profess to truly believe. There are those times though, in which I wake up in the middle of the night with the cold sweats, thinking; “What if I’m wrong?”
Hiya Christian,
Let’s play nice.
Generally speaking, in the matter of evangelism, I agree with you, which is exciting. The idea of bringing up hell as a scare tactic is strange, since, presumably, the person you’re talking to doesn’t buy into any of it anyway. And even if you “get ‘im”, the sensation won’t last and now you’ve got a person who’s even more resistant to he gospel that they were before.
I would be concerned, though, to avoid it in preaching or teaching. The admittedly ridiculous examples you give of speculative “teaching” on the matter are just stupid , and it is right to say so. However, there is enough information on the matter of Hell, and the vast majority of it comes from Christ himself.
For instance, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus indicates no terminus, and to “go to Abraham” is most typically in Judaism for a justified soul to go to its reward, although there is some dispute over that. As well, the issue of the worm never dying and Christ’s citation of Isaiah 66 is in a Jewish context, in which, the true “heaven” will be God’s Kingdom on earth when the Messiah comes and brings judgment. To be a corpse in the midst of the ressurrection is to be eternally condemned. The issue of the corpses does not speak to them not being conscious, it only speaks to them not having risen from the dead on the last day. The idea of that which consumes you never dying does, even metaphorically if that is your unwise angle, that there remains something to be consumed forever.
I would also be concerned to avoid the clear implication of smoke rising from their sufferings for “eternities of eternities”. I have had some say to me, “but it’s just smoke,” which, if you are going to look at it as smoke from burning, then one has to wonder what is burning. Where there’s smoke… There are other explanations for the “smoke” but the more likely answer to its meaning is even harder than what appears to be happening on the surface. Plenty of hard stuff in the word, stuff that makes me flinch. But turning our backs on what the word says is unwise and unfaithful.
My experience has also been that a person’s challenging response to a difficult teaching is a great opportunity for discipling. If the person finds even the idea of Hell repellent, then that person may not understand just how big what Christ did for us on the cross really is. I recall one wise evangelist saying that he uses red-flag words not to say what he thinks, but to find out why others don’t think it.
It’s easier to talk and push if one knows what the other’s hang ups are.
As well, the unbelievable love and grace of God is clearly visible in Jesus. But we must not forget that the most graphic suffering in the entire Bible is Jesus bringing righteous judgment upon the earth. The judgement that he says must happen (Rev 1:1, 4:1) and will(1:19) happen.
I am also not sure where people started thinking that Hell was absent from God. Perhaps it is borne of a desire to put the soft lens on the camera, an air-brushed throne room. It is biblically unavoidable that the wrath of the Father was poured out upon his Son, in the place of his people. James 4:12 also puts some punctuation on that sentence. And it is a really hard thing.
The word that is typically translated “destroy” in english translations does not by any necessity mean annihilated. It really speaks more to permanent lostness, a hopeless state of, as Genesis puts it, settling in the land of wandering. If looked at by itself it is possible that it could mean “destroy” in that sense, but since there are other passages which indicate an ongoing state, it is an unsupportable conclusion.
If I can ask a question, in the matter of us being able to refuse the redemptive gift of God, how should we see the “all the Father gives to me..” pericope in John 6, or Zacharias’ prophecy in Luke 1:68 about how God has “visited us and accomplished redemption” or the inevitable inclusiveness of every step of the way in Romans 8:29-30 contrasted with the profound exclusivity (in God’s eyes, not ours, I do not have the authority to break the seals on the scrolls) just prior in 8:28. I just want to understand your take on that.
Thanks.
This has been a lovely conversation. I’ve enjoyed you all. I would think to scare someone into becoming a Christian is like a shotgun wedding. They are going through with it but it’s against their will. Those people will never reflect true Christianity in their lives if their only reason to accept Jesus is because they are afraid of hell fire.
My next hope Christian is that you listen to that voice that is waking you up at night. Do you think that might be the spirit of God trying to speak to you?
When we sleep is one of the best times that God can talk and reveal things to us. Our spiritual man is able to get a word in edgewise while the physical man is sleep.
Jason, I loved your post, especially about the soft lenses on the camera. I was also intrigued by your question about how God hath redeemed us and how man can refuse the redemptive gift. In the case of Zacharias, when he was speaking of redemption he was referring to the promise of the messiah not just the redemption that would come later.
The scripture is very clear that Jesus had paid the price for all our sins through his sacrifice. Heb 10:10 says that “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”. However if you scroll down to verse 26 it states that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
That really bursts any notion that our continual sins are covered under the price he paid at the cross. Those that follow after sin will be cut off from God’s mercy and refused the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice.
Wow, you learn something everyday.
Ms Alfern
Hiya Ms Webb,
Thanks for your reply. If I may ask a couple more questions.
How is it that Zacharias is referring to a promise if he’s speaking in a past tense both in the visiting and in the accomplishing of redemption? Both of the things you mentioned are future items: something promised has not yet come to pass and redemption yet tto come is obviously in the future. But that is not the language that is in God’s word. If it means what it says, Zacharias is referring to something that is, at the least, a foregone conclusion, and at the most, something that has happened certainly. I don’t for one second mean to suggest that redemption comes without Christ, what I am saying is that, under the power of the Holy Spirit, Zacharias said that the people are redeemed, that God has accomplised this. It seems that this is the only way to explain the idea that anyone before Christ was with the Lord in whatever capacity before Christ came. Could you explain the dichotomy to which you referred a bit further?
I understand the view of Hebrews 10:26 which you gave. However, if I sin in any way, most significantly, if I think of myself, even in my most aching personal needs, before I think of God, if I look to my own wisdom before his word, if I get unreasonably angry about anything, etc., basically, if I’m not absolutely perfect from the point in which God opened my eyes to his truth, then there is no hope for me? I don’t think that interpretation is biblical. Let me explain:
For instance, In Revelation 2-3, Christ refers to those in the Churches as one entity, that is, he refers to the whole church as 2nd person singular, as when I say “you” to you. But the churches are to repent of either active or passive disobedience in all but one of the letters. By your reading of Hebrews 10:26, the people in these churches who need to repent are out of luck if they are part of the body of Christ. But their is no indication of that.
As well, in James 3:2, he writes that we all stumble in many ways, and says it in order that those who choose to try to teach what the Bible says to others would feel the appropriate weight of that responsibility. But James says that “we all stumble”, the expression includes himself without a doubt. Certainly God’s perfection demands that, if we are to try to live by the law after Christ has grabbed ahold of us, then we are back to trying to save ourselves and no more well off than we would have been if Christ never came at all. Indeed, Paul addresses this very errror in Galatians 3.
As an other example, Paul is writing to Christians, people in the Body of Christ, in Corinth, addressing their sinful behavior in matters of factionism, classism and antinomianism. They were treating each other quite poorly. Now you must admit that this is clearly sin. Does Paul give even a hint of a possibility that these people are without hope? Of course not.
Lastly, John is, again, writing to Christians in 1 John and he says that he is writing that no one may sin, but if one does sin, and then he says, “we have an advocate”. Now if he is writing to Christians, and addresses the possibility of sin to “we”, one cannot say that one post conversion sin is damnable. He is after all including himself in that group.
I appreciate your concern that people may believe that they are”saved” bacause of some prayer or emotion or whatever, but their behavior doesn’t match their profession. I am very much with you in that one. But if we don’t take Hebrews 10:26 to mean a lifestyle characterized by sin, and instead see it as just one sin, then we have no hope. If a person is able to maintain the will to not be disobedient then that person was not in need of God’s grace anyway and Christ’s blood is wasted on them. In fact, if God’s people are able to be perfect without God, then why did Jesus come at all?
Please, think through these ideas and consider their cohesiveness with other passages and their correlation to the Christian life before you teach them. To teach Christians that there is no hope if you drop the ball even once, which is really what you are saying, is to negate the efficacy of Christ on the Cross, and to drift into a variety of gnosticsm, in that, all the sins before you got the knowledge are forgiven, but one thing wrong after that and you are cast out of Kingdom of God.
I would appreciate you, Alfern, and any other follow up on this. The only way to talk about it is to talk about it.
Thanks.
I’m not sure if that is what Alfern meant. But if so I have to agree with Jason here. Otherwise, I am doomed. The waking up at night in a panic – I think that it is because it goes against my human nature to readily accept God’s eternal gift of mercy and grace. After all, it is so hard at times for me to forgive others, how could God ever forgive someone as decrepit as me?
Wow, absolutely fabulous.
It totally goes against our fallenness to not try and depend on ourselves for salvation. Grace is out of our hands. That is a great observation, and I think it is right on the money. Those moments of panic in the life of a person who has been called by Christ, I think, is God further exposing our self reliance, read: unbelief, and by it he draws us in. While we desparately call to him, “Lord, save me!”, he pulls us out of the water and both expressing his perfect love and power, with a rebuke, saying, “you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Hi my new friends. TFirstly, I do not profess to be a Bible Scholar. And thanks Christian, but you are reading too deep into my post. To imply that one sin would nagate Christs dying on the cross was not my intent or what I said. Maybe I didn’t finish my post because it was pretty late for me. But the scripture in Hebrews was talking about the soul that hungers for sin. Does a true Christian willfully sin? I don’t think so. The person that willfully sins is not of God.
We all make mistakes, maybe even slip or can be overtaken in a fault. When we do we should feel condemned for our actions and be remorseful. We are human and will never be perfect until we put on immortality. If when we sin or slip if we repent and return unto God he is faithful to forgive us for our sins and will restore us back unto him. Then he is so great to throw our sins into the sea of forgetfulness and remember them no more.
My point I was trying to make was that as great a price that Jesus has paid for our sins, a price that can cover any sin we could think of, it still won’t save us in the end if we continue to willfully sin and disregard his sacrifice.
Now about Zacharias, I believe he was confirming that the Lord God had indeed visited. The spirit of God had visited Mary, and the redeemer was here, in her womb. The promise that they had been waiting on has come to pass. So Redemption was here, unborn but it was here. And yet there were many people redeemed prior to Christ’s coming. They were justified by the law.
Isaiah spoke prophetically about the future in the present tense. For unto us a child is born and unto us a son is given. . I speak often of those things that are not as though there were. They are the promises of God and they are for me.
Lastly Christian, I used to sing a song back in the day about how I’m glad man didn’t create me for surely he would destroy me. In other words, if God had the mind of man, no one would be forgiven our patience and longsuffering would last about a minute. It’s our human nature, and it is often difficult for us to trust, believe and rest in the word of God.
God saved someone if I may use your words, “as decrepit” as you because you can reach a generation that many of us can’t reach. I was born a preacher’s kid and pretty much stayed in the church all my life. God let you go through the things you’ve experienced because he knew you would be a voice reaching the multitudes.
As Jesus told his disciples in his parable after Mary washed his feet with her hair. The one who is forgiven the most will Love him the most.
Your life is your testimony of God’s Greatness and Mercy. Always share it.
God Bless you both and Good night.
Excuse my typos, way past my bedtime.
Thanks Alfern. Ditto, ditto and ditto on the your summation. I figured that was where you really were coming from. Sorry for not asking for clarity first.
As far as not being a Bible scholar ( I only know of one us here that is and I usually disagree with him
), I find the way you just put that idea across very refreshing and thought provoking, if not a bit humbling. Thanks again.
A Dios
Hiya Alfern,
I really appreciate your reply, but, Gosh, I must protest.
If those who came before Christ were justirfied by the law then what is Romans 2-3 about? It is hard but if the old testament believers were saved by observance of the law, then so can we, and the second person of the trinity getting the crap kicked out of him and brutally murdered was just hyperbole.
And actually, in order to see the idea of the promise of redemption as what Zacharias is saying then we have to surmise something opposite of what the text says. We have to be subject to the tenses, especially in dialogue, if we are going to profess and teach what the bible actually says. And it, in miserable literal english, says that God visited (as in the effective visit is done) and made redemption (as in those who were in bondange have been completely bought and paid for), he did it, not is doing it or has started doing it.
I’m sorry to be such a pain about this but if, in my own experience, I don’t like the consequences of what it says, it ends up being my issue. And since by your profession, it is not unreasonable to assume that you love Jesus, my hope is that we are transformed by the Holy Spirit through the word of God, that we would profess it and do it.
Thanks again Alfern and Christian,
pee ess: What…we don’t agree brother Christian?
(followed by smileywinkingyellowfacedguy, wherever he is)
Jason, I am not sure where or even if we do disagree. I just wonder if we both have the same understanding of what Alfern is saying.
What I take her to be saying is this:
Although Jesus’ sacrifice paid the price for all sin, past and future, if we continue to willfully and deliberately, and without remorse or repentance, sin then we are demonstrating a refusal of his forgiveness. For this to happen then we must first be aware of (and agree with) his sacrifice, mercy and grace.
I agree with what she is saying here although I can’t imagine this sort of thing happening. I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if it has happened many times. I also wonder if this is what some people mean by ‘blaspheming the holy spirit’, the one unforgivable sin.
Please forgive an interloper for interjecting some comments. Some brief points, if I may:
On the question Jason raises about how Zechariah can speak of future events as past: this is pretty common, actually, in terms of our English versions of words from numerous prophets, and my limited learning tells me that it is because there is a great difference between the English and Hebrew languages (and therefore ways of thinking) with respect to time. In English, time is divided grammatically into three separate tenses, past, present and future (and the Greek has more, but I’m not going there just now); but if I’ve been instructed correctly, the Hebrew does not have these three tenses, but only two, and those two are: accomplished and not accomplished, or complete and incomplete. English translators usually (but not always) render the first of these as past, and the second as future; but since prophecy is sure, and in the mind of God, at least, already accomplished, prophetic realities can show up in the past tense.
Now my first real comment:: It is a curious and uncomfortable observation that in the New Testament no one makes more references to hell, fire, torment, outer darkness (which is probably where we get the “removed from God” idea), and the like, than Jesus, who is, as we know, the source of forgiveness in the extreme, praying for forgiveness of the unrepentant soldiers as they nailed his hands to the cross, offering Communion to Judas Iscariot, knowing what was in the man’s heart. What’s up with that? Often the harshest words along these lines are reserved for those who have received grace and refuse to offer it in turn, as with the parable of the debtors. “So shall my heavenly Father do to you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart”. It is not the unrepentant sinful masses that seem in greatest danger, but the redeemed with their superior attitude. This sets up a paradox, of sorts. It almost suggests that yes, forgiveness is free and universal, but not for those who having received it refuse to give it to others. In fact that’s the explicit point he makes in the one commentary he associates with what we call the Lord’s Prayer: “If you do not forgive, neither will my Father forgive you.” He’s talking to His own chosen followers there in private session, not to the unrepentant masses.
Second: The “everlasting fire” is “prepared for the devil and his angels.” It has not been prepared for humans, even though some are in danger of it.
Third: There are a host of scriptures indicating a universal scope to the work of Christ, whose purpose is to unite all things in heaven and on earth. The song of praise in Revelation 5:13 includes “every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth, the sea and all that is in them.” Thus one might hope that “all those whose names were not found in the Lamb’s book of life” turns out to be a very short list, since Peter tells us that “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Can God’s will be thwarted? How many is all? Truly, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23); “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). Are there any that have not sinned? Are there any that have not been justified freely? How many is all?
My take is that we cannot presume that Hell is not real; however, perhaps we can hope, through repentance and grace, for it to be empty.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled blog
Very cool. Thanks, Bob. You have a way of putting things very succinctly.
You’re right, we cannot know with certainty what outcomes await us. So it might not be such a good idea to use the threat of hell as the main impetus for turning to God. Perhaps there are other aspects to the Gospel that may prove more effective.
The Gospel is not Good News unless it is Good News for the whole world. It was the world (yes, including “your name here” but not limited to that!) that God so loved that he gave his only son! To back away from the breathtaking scope of God’s purpose in Christ — the salvation of the world, the redemption, of all that has been created— is to miss the most exciting aspects of the Gospel. We are called to be co-laborers with Christ (“partakers of the divine nature” as Peter puts it) in this grand endeavor! In this regard I often point out that there is nothing more harsh and demanding than Love, and Forgiveness, since in receiving it we obligate ourselves to offer it as well. Often I think that in preaching a non-judgmental Gospel I am in danger of making myself a judge. Thus all the Christian virtues and disciplines come into play: humility, self-denial, integrity, faith, and, oh, does someone want to talk about standards? There is no standard more demanding than the requirement for us to love indiscriminately, without partiality, the way God does. That is what Holiness is all about.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any
man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his
forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he
shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelations 14:9-11
“And the devil that deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast
and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day
and night for ever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
Welcome, Michael.
Yep. John of Patmos sure knew how to turn a phrase. Concerning his Revelation, do you suppose that Jesus actually takes on the form of a lamb, or is that perhaps a poetic metaphor? Along with the sword in his mouth, the bood soaked garments, mulit colored horses etc. etc.?
I don’t understand why we can see some things as obviious metaphor and then take some other things as literal descriptions.
.
Hiya Rev,
Appreciate much of what you said. The Z-man to which I was referring is the Aorist of Poiew followed by lutrwsis in Luke 1:68, that’s Zacharias, John the Baptist’s father. As well, does John use “the world differently in the rest of his letter? How do you determine its meaning to be as you say, in matters of salvation, if elsewhere kosmos is used by John quite derisively?
And, oh geez, Christian, does that mean that Jesus is only raised in our hearts? One way on the metaphor train only means you are the arbiter of truth, dependent on how you are feeling today. The apocalyptic symbolism is easy to pick out, but if its actual meaning is defined only by Spong and Borg’suse of pseudepigrapha, that is, what God’s word says is defined only by that which is extrabiblical then why bother to read it?
Tell me about your hermeneutical spiral by which you judge that which is metaphor and literal. Is the worm never dies a metaphor? Is a great chasm fixed a metaphor? Is outer darkness a metaphor? Much of that seems to fit in well with what Michael cites. Why deride it?
Tag
Jason
Sure it’s metaphor- picturesque language. If not then perhaps you can tell me what the worm actually is? If it represents Satan (like the serpent, the beast, the dragon) then it is still metaphorical, as he cannot literally be all those things, can he? This doesn’t mean that Satan doesn’t exist and that he isn’t pretty nasty – he’s just not a worm.
Sorry if it came across as derision but all I got from Michael was some unsupported Biblical proof texting. as if to say; “Here it is, in black and white (and red) – case closed and the last word.”
The point of my article was to object to (and even deride) the literal use of some of this ‘fire and brimstone’ imagery in an attempt to scare people in to conversion. Or to scare them into conforming to what some ‘men’ would like to see in the way of proper “Christian” behavior. Since Michael seems to be playing that same hand, well…..how else should I respond?
My hermeneutical spiral? There is no spiral that I am aware of.There is no template that one puts up to the Bible to say what is fact and what is poetic license. When Micah says to ‘walk humbly with the Lord’ we all know what he means. It is still metaphor – or should I go out and by some new hiking boots?
Does it matter what we take literally as opposed to figuratively? Not unless it changes the meaning of God’s message. In this case I believe that the ‘hell and damnation’ Gospel subverts the Gospel of love, mercy, compassion and redemption.
Have you read Borg and Spong? I can’t even take Spong seriously – he is an angry vicar. Although I don’t agree with everything he says, I have learned a lot from Borg. I can say the same for CS Lewis, John Piper and RC Sproul.
Of course they are just men. As was John of Patmos. As well as those who voted on whether or not to leave John’s Revelation in the canon (to which Augustine and Luther objected). I don’t think that I am in such bad company to question the literal veracity of this book. The shame is that there is some good advice for today’s church in there that tends to get lost within all the Tolkienesque imagery.
Not to create a tangent but…. Why not? Because our puny brains can’t comprehend it?
Not taking a position one way or the other, but niether am I closing any doors….
Ah, come on. You always play that card. But that’s OK – you essentially backed me up on the metaphor position – it doesn’t really matter. As long as we get the drift.
I think scriptures should be taken as whole and viewed in perspective of the four Gospel narratives. To fixate too much on any one book (as I believe is often the case with Revelations) is very much a matter of not seeing the forest for the trees.
The Bible preaches there is a Hell and people need to be aware of it God takes it very seriously that’s why he sent Jesus to die on the Cross for our sin so that we will not be cast into it.
Jesus preached it
Luke:
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
You don’t scare people into becoming a Christian remember you didn’t choose Jesus he chose you.
John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 1:4-5
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Thanks for joining the conversation Gordon. Welcome.
I don’t think you would want me to just repeat the arguments that I made on this post or even the one specifically devoted to the doctrine of hell; http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2006/09/06/who-are-all-those-damn-people/
But to address your first remark – doesn’t this translate another way? Jesus came to save us from God, since God made the rules and created the punishment? Is that the Good News?
“But to address your first remark – doesn’t this translate another way? Jesus came to save us from God, since God made the rules and created the punishment? Is that the Good News?”
What else does atonement mean? To whom do we atone? Does it just go out there somewhere. Who is the judge? I can’t believe you never thought of this, I just thought you threw it out cuz it hurt your feelings.
When Christ says fear the one who can destroy body and soul in hell, who do you think he is talking about?
Whatever ethereal vision you might think Revelation is, Satan gets it at the end. Satan is not the giver in the final judgement, he is the getter.
“God made the rules”. This is incredibly illustrative. Most of your blog is moralism, you going on and on about how people should do this and people should do that, and now you are upset about the idea that the Creator of all things metes out justice in a fashion which is commensurate with much of what you are already arguing for.
That has Genesis 3:5 written all over it.
C’mon, Jason. Comparing me to the serpent in the Garden? For crying out loud…
Of course, God holds us in the palm of his hand, he could crush us or cradle us. Based upon what Jesus has taught us I feel that his nature is to cradle and caress. Surely there will be those of us who will insist upon trying to make it without him, and their fate is likely not desirable. But when we insist upon first envisioning God as a wrathful judge then I think we do miss much of the Good News.
If Jesus were only an atonement, a means for us to avoid hell, then why did he bother to teach morals? He must have felt that moral actions were important. The rules that God made are spelled out in morality. In fact, I think you could say that the path along Jesus’ way is paved with morals.
I am amused that you see me as going on and on about what people should or should not do. A case of the pot calling the kettle black, I would say.
Hiya!
Oh, I see where you misunderrstood me. You take everything so literally. What is your problem with metaphors, anyway?
smilerguy
I wasn’t actually comparing you to the serpent, but I understand how you got that. What I meant to be the point was that you, who ascribes to moralism as a religion, questions the fact that the Creator of everything makes the rule based on his own character for everything and judges by either perfect or imperfect obedience to it. Satan knows better. Eve didn’t. She listened to the destroyer and questioned what God had said. Which is basically what you asserted, in saying, “Jesus came to save us from God, since God made the rules and created the punishment? Is that the Good News?”
Your straw man caricature aside, yes. But it much more full and rich than that crude summary to those who love his as he has shown himself to be in his word.
All of it. Not just the stuff you feel like. annnnndddd……
“Based upon what Jesus has taught us I feel that his nature is to cradle and caress.”
hahahaha
OK, make some sort of systematic defense of this Touched by an Angel/Barney god. Make this leap: Captain Kangaroo God…God getting tortured and murdered as the pinnacle, the culmination of all of creation and all of time. I am not and have not said that we need to put anything first (how do you put something first? if you really mean “first”, our vision of God in single file and walk him out before us, there is no first, but Holy, Holy, Holy is the how the creatures in the throne room address him). I known that you think it is a dead horse, but your vision of the triune God and what happened on the cross is cute and little and astonishingly selective. Really, how much is in the Gospels about the wrath of God and how Christ came here to bring his sheep to the Father, not tell us how to do it ourselves? He is the helpless guy across the road hoping for the best.
Lastly:
“I think you could say that the path along Jesus’ way is paved with morals.”
Zowie. This is legalism. You don’t get any more legalistic that this. You are heaping on the rules to be in Christ. You are a rule heaper. heapheap. This I do and God accepts me. You cannot avoid it, especially with your Precious Moments Jesus. If this is really your view of the gospel, I think you might have been better off with the don’t drink legalists.
And you are totally not answering the question regarding what happened on the cross and who demands the atonement. It’s like e-flinching.
I think you have it all twisted Jesus came to save us from Sin. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God hates Sin. God sent Jesus, I always do my Fathers will.
What’s your problem with Barney and Captain Kangaroo? Touched by an Angel, sure, that was sentimental dreck but the Treasure House? You macho guys slay me.
God takes it upon himself to be tortured and murdered for us – how does that point to a wrathful and vengeful God as opposed to what you think of my cuddly God? No greater love…..
If one’s view of Jesus is that he was primarily (or even only, I don’t know – how many explanations are out there for the incarnation?) a legal payment for our sins, and that the only thing we must do to be ’saved’ is recite the sinner’s prayer, then I can see how they would see my views about morality as being legalistic. In fact they would be legalistic, if I held to that idea.
But if someone believed that there was more to the incarnation (not less), that perhaps it was a way for God to show us how to live, how to relate to each other, to show us a way towards peace among our enemies and nations, a means in which our culture might begin to heal itself (with God’s help of course) – then to be interested in morality might make some sense.
Of course one man’s vice is another’s virtue, so one can see the trap here. But Jesus spoke about specific things so I think we can stop worrying so much about the bars and the beaches and direct our efforts to the areas he spoke most passionately about – poverty, hunger, sickness, prisons, broken relationships, violence…
To repeat what Dallas Willard once said – grace is opposed to earning, not effort.
To answer your question – Jesus died on the cross to show us a way to salvation, a way to the Father. It is the most important moment in history. We must all take up our crosses and follow him. As for atonement – he died for the sins of all mankind. Does that mean his sacrifice was in payment for our sin debt – or a ransom paid to Satan – or the result of a contract made with Abraham…. I don’t know. But I do know that he died for me and I am grateful.
Gordon – always? You talkin’ about Jesus our yourself, because I find that I rarely do the Father’s will (ok, maybe more than rarely, but not enough).
I especially have a hard time when my father’s will is spelled out in black and white, like in the Ten Commandments. Should be simple, but it ain’t.
It becomes easier for me when I forget about those rules and regs and concentrate instead on Jesus and his teachings. I find that in those times I do the right things without being aware of it (unfortunately this does not happen too often, pride is a terrible thing). In fact, when I am doing a fairly good job of this I am reminded that most of these theological issues that we are debating are in reality academic. All the answers I need are found in Christ. There is no need to worry about the rest.
I was going to write a lengthy response but I will just use a quote taken from “Oliver Greene”
Hell is a place prepared by Almighty God . . . prepared for “the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). In Genesis 1:1 we read, “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.” You will note that in the beginning, God created the “Heaven” (singular) and the earth (singular). He did not create “heavens” or “earths” (plural) just the Heaven and the earth. In the beginning, there was no hell; It was not needed, and God does not create anything to lie idle. He does not create, unless the created serves a purpose in His economy.
On the sixth day of creation, God made man and you may rest assured that God did not make man for hell. It is not God’s will that any should perish, but if man chooses to serve Satan, if man desires Satan as his master, then he must of necessity spend eternity with Satan.
When God created the Heaven and the earth, there was no devil, no sin, no evil – no need for hell; but somewhere along the way, Satan became jealous of God. He was not Satan at that time – he was Lucifer, the Shining One, the Anointed Cherub. Read Ezekiel 28ff; and read Isaiah 14:10ff; and you will find the record of the origin of Satan. At one time he was in God’s angelic host; he was the Anointed Cherub, perfect in all of his ways, perfect in beauty until he decided to overthrow God. He “brain-washed” some of the angels and led them astray, they attempted to overthrow God and God cast Satan out of Heaven.
Jesus testified that He saw Satan fall from Heaven and the sight was “as lightning” in the sky. “And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven” (Luke 10:18). Surely he must have been a shining creature, a bright personality, a powerful being but he no longer wanted to be subordinate to God. He decided he would overthrow God and God threw him out! The Creator is always greater and more powerful than the created.
When God was forced to cast Lucifer and his angels out of Heaven, He prepared a place for them, and that is the reason we have a place called hell. According to Matthew 25:41, hell was prepared for the devil, and for the devil’s angels – not for you and me. But if we live like the devil, we must spend eternity with him. Read John 8:44.
The Bible teaches that hell is DOWN – never up. Isaiah 14:9 refers to hell from “beneath” moving up to meet Satan. In Job 11:8, “It is as high as Heaven; what canst thou do? DEEPER THAN HELL: What canst thou know?” Job referred to hell as a DEEP place, and when we think of depth, we think of “down”.
David describes hell thus: “Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them” (Psalm 55:15). David believed and taught that hell is “down,” and that the wicked “go down into hell.”
Peter sheds a little light on hell and its location: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them DOWN TO HELL, and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment . . .” (II Pet. 2:4). Peter walked and talked with Jesus, and Jesus preached the hottest sermon on hell that you will ever read. It was Jesus (not some fanatical evangelist or pastor) who first used the words “HELL FIRE” in our precious Bible. Peter tells us that God cast the fallen angels down to hell, and they are in chains of darkness, waiting the great white throne judgment of God.
It seems to me that that is enough scripture to convince any person who wants to know the truth; and any person who denies these scriptures must face the fact recorded in the Bible and admit that “THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT . . .” (II Pet. 3:5). The Bible distinctly refers to hell as being “down” – deep down – and angels have been cast into hell. I wish our friends who believe and teach that the grave is hell, would read these verses and believe them – not because I pointed them out, but because the Holy Ghost put them in the Bible.
The Bible refers to hell as a “pit”: “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from Heaven unto the earth, and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit; and he opened the bottomless pit and there arose a smoke out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” (Rev. 9:1-2). To make it very clear that this scripture definitely refers to hell, I quote verse 11 in the same chapter: “And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” Those Greek words mean “The Destroyer,” “The Deceiver,” “The Murderer,” none other than the devil. And the same Greek word is used in I Peter 5:8: “Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour.”
There is no doubt in my mind that hell is in the center of this earth. There is a news article in my book THE TWO SIGNS, on the subject “Man plans to drill into hell.” Many times God uses wicked men to point out the truth, even though they do not realize what they are doing. According to John the Beloved (to whom God dictated Revelation) hell is a bottomless pit. This earth is round, and I believe hell is in the center of this earth.
Amos describes hell in these words: “Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to Heaven, thence will I bring them down” (Amos 9:2). Certainly when we think of digging, we think of going down in the earth – we do not dig UP, we dig DOWN: we do not dig in the air, we dig in the dirt. Amos tells us as the Holy Spirit leads him to write – “Though they dig into hell, thence shall my hand take them.” Amos believed that hell is in the center of the earth.
On one occasion the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign, and Jesus said, in essence, “I will give you one sign, and ONLY one: As Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40). In Acts 2:25-27 we find the Holy Spirit quoting what was prophesied in Psalms: “Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: because thou wilt not leave my soul IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” The Holy Spirit here quotes the prophecy in Psalm 16:8-11.
I am sure some of you are saying, “Mr. Greene, would you suggest that Jesus went to hell?” No, I would not suggest that – I have just read it to you from the Bible! But now wait a minute – He did not go to the torments of hell. In the Old Testament era, hell had two compartments one, Paradise; the other, fire. In Luke 16, the account of the rich man and Lazarus tells us that between the two “there was a great gulf.” Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom, the rich man was in a flame of fire; they were both in the heart of the earth. When Jesus died, His soul – the part of man that loves and reasons – descended into Paradise and announced to the spirits there that the Lamb had been slain, redemption had been purchased and completed. Jesus then “Led captivity captive,” and ascended “FAR ABOVE ALL HEAVENS.”
Paul says, “Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first, into the lower parts of the earth?” Read Ephesians 4:7-11. Jesus died on the cross; He literally passed His Spirit back to God. They placed His body in the garden tomb in Jerusalem; His soul descended into Paradise. (The love of God descended into Paradise and announced to the spirits in prison that the sin-debt had been paid.) This announcement was not made to souls in the fire, but to the people of the Old Testament era who had died and gone into Paradise – the place where Abraham was, with Lazarus resting on his bosom. Without a shadow of a doubt, hell is in the center of this earth. It is the “bottomless pit.”
The Bible refers to hell as a “prison.” Revelation 20:7: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.” In the first few verses of Revelation 20, we find an angel arresting Satan, binding him with a chain, casting him into the bottomless pit (hell), and setting a seal on him. He is to remain there for one thousand years, during which we will have the Millennium here on earth. Then will come the time politicians have talked about, but have done very little to bring about: We will have that glorious “peace on earth, good will to men” that can never happen as long as Satan is out of jail; but when the angel who has the key to hell and death (read Rev. 1:18) descends; when Jesus descends and sits on the throne of His father, David, and the devil is in the pit on the “chain gang,” we will have peace on earth, good will toward men.
The Bible teaches that hell is a place of sorrow – a place of desperate sorrow: “The SORROWS OF HELL compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me” (Psalm 18:5). I am so glad that I am not going to hell, because I do not enjoy being around people who are filled with sorrow. As believers, we are to weep with those who weep, mourn with those who mourn, and rejoice with those who rejoice; but I am glad all of that will cease for the believers when we depart this life and go to be with Jesus. We are going to a place where there is no sorrow, no heartache, no disappointment, thank God! We are not going to the place of eternal sorrow, eternal weeping, eternal mourning, where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” No wonder David referred to hell as a place of sorrow!
Hell is without a doubt a very large place. Isaiah tells us that “Hell hath enlarged herself” (Isaiah 5:14). In Proverbs 27:20 we read, “HELL AND DESTRUCTION ARE NEVER FULL.” Something to think about, sinner friend. HELL IS NEVER FULL – and people are pouring into it like water pours over Niagara Falls!
Let us bring Jesus to the witness stand and ask Him to give us a little light on hell. In that marvelous masterpiece, The Sermon on the Mount, (three great chapters that liberals and modernists like to refer to and talk about), Jesus gives some light on hell: “But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matthew 5:22). The term “hell” (and in most places the word “fire” is connected with it) is used by Jesus in Matthew 5:22, 5:29, and 5:30. Also in Matthew 10:28, Matthew 18:9, Matthew 23:15, 23:33. Also in Mark 9:43, 9:45, 9:47, in Luke 12:5 and in James 3:6. Every time Jesus uses the term, He is sounding out a solemn warning concerning the consequences of sin.
So you see, beloved, that terrible, horrible, “old fogy” term “hell-fire” was not coined or manufactured by some crackpot in the pulpit. Those words were uttered by none other than the tender, compassionate, loving, longsuffering, gentle, meek Lamb of God! He put no frills on it, He did not sugar-coat it. The words are understandable, rough and rugged: “Hell-Fire!” I think we can afford to believe what Jesus said about hell, and as for me and my house, WE WILL believe it. We will stand on it, live by it, preach it, and die by it! If you choose to take the fires OUT of hell, then one day, my friend, you will be convinced when you drop into the fires of hell. Did I hear you say, “Mr. Greene, I do not believe in hell”? Is that what you said? Friend, that does not matter; what you believe about hell is not important. This Old Book got here before you did, and it will be here when you are gone. You had better believe it and receive it – you will wake up in hell if you do not! Jesus taught hell; He taught a hell of fire – and we will see more about it later in this message.
Jesus delivered a sermon one day, and He used some of the most scorching words ever to fall from the lips of any man. If you will read the 23rd chapter of Matthew, you will read a “scorcher!” The Son of God could take off more hide per square inch than any preacher who ever lived. There has never been a rougher, tougher preacher of the Truth. He was as meek as a lamb – but He was a consuming fire. He could say, “Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not.” He could also say, “Bind them, and take them away and cast them into hell-fire!” Oh, yes, He is a Lamb – He is Love; but He is also a consuming fire. LET’S BELIEVE IT ALL!
In Matthew 23:33, Jesus closes His message by saying, “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape THE DAMNATION OF HELL?” That is kind of rough. Let one of these modern, lovey-dovey, scissor-tailored coat-wearing, stepladder-collar-parading, back-scratching, ear-tickling, compromising, Gospel-dodging, easy going, “Channel Number 5,” seminary-manufactured preachers step into a pulpit on Sunday morning, raise his voice and refer to a gang of liquor-heads, dope fiends, home wreckers, heart breakers and blasphemers, using the words of Jesus – “Ye serpents, you generation of snakes! How do you hope to escape Hell!” Let him try that just one time and see what happens. No, I am not sarcastic, I am not trying to be funny: I am heart-sick! God pity spineless jellyfish preachers who do not have nerve enough to look a gang of hypocrites in the face – a gang who for six days in the week drink liquor, cuss, lie and steal, and then are right “sanctimonious” on Sunday morning – and tell them what they are! The preacher who lets that crowd slip through his fingers and wake up in hell, will nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-times out of ten thousand, drop into the same hell they drop into! If, by chance, he IS a saved man, he will certainly stand before God with bloody hands. The dirtiest thief this side of hell is a man who will stand in the pulpit knowing the truth but afraid to preach it to a crowd that NEEDS the truth. Jesus put no frills on his ministry. He stated clearly that the wages of sin is death and hypocrisy brings damnation. These folks who profess to be sheep, He pronounced in no uncertain terms to be SNAKES. God help us to wake up! HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION!
Jesus tells us another very interesting thing about hell in Matthew 16:18: “And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.” Jesus taught that hell has gates. I know there is a deeper meaning here concerning the church and the gates of hell but I am not going into that. That is another sermon. What I am pointing out here is what the Bible teaches about hell. According to Jesus, hell has gates and that leads me to my last point here:
We have learned that hell is DOWN; hell is A PIT; hell is a PRISON; hell is a PLACE OF SORROWS; hell is a place that is NEVER FULL; hell is a place that burns with FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: hell is a PLACE OF DAMNATION; it is a place that has gates. But I have news for you, hallelujah! Hear this: “I AM HE THAT LIVETH, AND WAS DEAD: AND, BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE FOREVER MORE, AMEN! AND HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH!” (Revelation 1:18).
That is good news to me, hallelujah! Jesus lives in my heart, and Jesus has two keys: He has the key to death – so I am not afraid to die. He has the key to hell – so I am not worried about hell, because my Saviour has the key!
Jesus came to earth in a body; He lived in that body for thirty-three and a half years, tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. He tasted life in every respect as we taste life; He was put through every test that we are, yet He did not falter. He challenged His enemies to bring one accusation against Him – but they could not. They hired liars and false witnesses to testify against Him. He is the One Who died, of His own free will – He said, “No man taketh my life … I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10:18). Paul tells us in Hebrews 2:9 that Jesus came to die, He came to taste death for every man. He died, descended into the Paradise side of hell, then He led captivity captive and ascended far above all Heavens. “When He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3). That is where He sits today. And as He sits on the right hand of God the Father, He holds the keys to death and hell. Hallelujah! What a Saviour! Do you know Him? If you do not, receive Him now.
So far, I have named some of the varied and sundry ideas about hell. I have pointed out some of the doctrines set forth by “religions” concerning hell. Then, I asked the question, “Who is right, and who is wrong?” I answered that question by quoting Romans 3:4, “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” We then studied ten definite things said about hell in the Bible. We completed this by declaring that hell has a gate, and Jesus has the key. Oh, yes, I forgot – this sermon is on the subject “Where the Worm dieth Not.” What is the worm that will never die? (I got so wrapped up in what the Bible said about hell that I forgot all about my subject!).
Read carefully the following words – words that fell from the tender lips and came from the tender heart of the Lamb of God. The hottest sermon on hell that you will ever read is here – there are more blazes and flames in these few verses than in any passage of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and Jesus is the preacher: “If thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: There their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, that having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).
I have quoted from God’s Word a very understandable sermon on hell. Anyone who wants to know and accept the truth can clearly see in these words what Jesus thought and taught about hell. I would like to outline these verses for you, break them down, so that we can see clearly exactly what they contain:
In verse 43, Jesus preaches that if a person cannot serve God with two hands, then it is much better to cut off one of them, be a cripple and serve God with one hand, rather than have two good hands, serve the devil and go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
According to this verse, Jesus preached hell as a place where there is fire. Maybe someone is saying, “Mr. Greene, that is not really fire.” God have mercy on such stupid, uncalled-for ignorance! We read about the streets of gold – “Oh, yes, THAT is gold!” We read about the gates of pearl – “Oh, yes, they are PEARLS all right – real pearls.”) We read about hell fire – and “that is not FIRE.” How calloused can a heart become? Dear friend, do not let any one tell you that is not “fire.” If the word “f-i-r-e” is a symbol, then just keep in mind that the real product is worse than the symbol! In other words, if this is not fire as we know fire, whatever it is it is HOTTER than our fire. (Fire is the only word Jesus could use that we could understand.) I believe Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said. He knew what He said, and He said what He knew because, you see, He was present when God Almighty created hell. Hell is a place of fire … it makes no difference what your preacher, your religion, or your book of doctrine says! If you cannot serve God with two hands, you would be better off with one hand, or with NO hands, than to have hands, serve the devil, and be lost in hell, “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 45, Jesus announces His second point: “If thy foot offend thee, cut it off.” If Jesus stood on my platform and preached to a group of people in the twentieth century, He would say something like this: “Ladies and men, if you cannot walk for Jesus, if your feet carry you to the places of the devil; if you are using your feet to serve sin, if you cannot serve God with two feet – then go out to the chopping block and let somebody take an axe and cut off one of them! It would be far better for you to go through life with one foot, than to have two feet and serve the devil, ending up in hell in a fire that never shall be quenched!” Does Jesus need to say anything two times to make it so? John 3:16 is only in the Bible one time, but we BELIEVE John 3:16. Oh, yes “God is love;” we believe that. God so loved the loved the world – yes, we believe that! But it is mighty hard for some people to believe that it is better to chop off a foot and go to Heaven, than it is to have two feet, go to hell, and drop into a lake of fire that burns with brimstone. They want to make something else out of the fire. They want to believe that God is love, that Jesus has gone to prepare a beautiful place with golden streets and gates of pure pearls – but hell? No! That just could not be fire! They refuse to accept the fact that God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
My friend, if you are reading these lines and you deny hell fire, I will perhaps never be able to convince you, ministers may never be able to convince you, the Word of God may not convince you – but it will take only three seconds of hell fire to make you believe! It will be too late then – entirely too late: I beg you to believe now! No, you cannot be saved and deny the Bible. You must believe that Jesus is the Christ and if you believe that He is the Christ, you believe He is One who “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). If there is no fire in hell, Jesus lied because He said “A man that calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.” He said, “It is better to lose your hand than to be cast into hell fire; and it is better to lose your foot than to be cast into hell fire.” So, if there is not fire in hell, then Jesus lied; and if He lied about hell, then He might have lied about the cross and we have no hope, no salvation. We might just as well eat, drink and be merry – tomorrow we may die! Let me repeat: – You may never believe this side of the grave, but YOU WILL BELIEVE ON THE OTHER SIDE; “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 47, Jesus announced His third point. (Almost every sermon Jesus preached was a three-point sermon; study them.) “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
I personally had much rather lose one of my hands than to lose one of my feet; I had rather have two feet than to have two hands. It would be far easier to have one hand, because a person with one hand can do almost anything a person with two hands can do; but if we lose a foot, that is a very painful, handicapping experience.
Jesus first mentions, losing the hand; He then moves from the hand to the foot – to lose a foot is bad; but third, to lose an eye is worse. Eyes are among the most important members of our body, and I would hate to lose one of my eyes.
God bless the dear, precious blind friends who listen to my programs; there are hundreds of them across the country. One day they will see Jesus, if they are saved, and they will have two good eyes just like His perfect eyes.
In essence, Jesus said “If you cannot look at the right things, if your eyes do not lead you to the right places, if you cannot use your eyes to glorify God – then the thing to do is pluck one of them out! You had better have one eye and go to Heaven, than have two eyes and go to hell; because hell is a place where the fire is never quenched.”
What about your eyes? Are you using them to glorify God, or are you using them to serve the devil? May God help you, if you are lost, to say this moment: “Lord, here are my heart, my hands, my feet, my eyes; save me. Save the members of my body, and help me whether I eat, drink, or whatsoever I do to do it all to the glory of God. When I walk; when I work; when I look-help me to do it to the glory of God!”
If you cannot do that, you would be better off without any feet, without any hands, without any eyes. It would be much better to be severely handicapped and serve God, than to have a good, sound, perfect body and go to hell “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Whew! Thanks, Gordon. Let me chew on that (although I think I’ve heard most of it before, from other sources.)
Hiya,
“God takes it upon himself to be tortured and murdered for us – how does that point to a wrathful and vengeful God as opposed to what you think of my cuddly God? No greater love….. ”
Again, what does an unnecessary snuffing of the only innocent person who ever lived accomplish. I’m gonna go stick my hand in the fryer, that’s how much I love you. What would cause a person to worship this masochistic, looney god? If punishment was applied then punishment was deserved. You deserved it. I deserved it. The cross is a miserably pointless, gratuitous, gauche, gesture in your formulation. Totally pointless.
You know exactly what I am saying. Understandably you don’t like the conclusion. There is a why to the cross, and it’s right there in the gospels, but you just don’t want it to be there. There was atonement…for something…to someone. In the absence of Jesus, what happens…God just says to all of us…”aaaaaaaa it’s ok, fugedabahdit.”? In this formulation, which is yours, you are actually much, much more interested in justice than God is. Now how likely does that seem?
What happened on the Cross, Christian?
“a legal payment for our sins, and that the only thing we must do to be ’saved’ is recite the sinner’s prayer”
Wow, I don’t know how many more times you can drag out that moldy straw man before he just falls apart. This caricature you keep trying to backdoor into this discussion is never mentioned by me. But if it helps you to avoid the problems you keep constructing then, by all means, wander off the plantation.
preh
jew
diss.
“But if someone believed that there was more to the incarnation (not less), that perhaps it was a way for God to show us how to live, how to relate to each other, to show us a way towards peace among our enemies and nations, a means in which our culture might begin to heal itself (with God’s help of course) – then to be interested in morality might make some sense.”
OK two things:
1. If the above thing is really what you believe then you are a legalist. I do then God gives grace. Oh maybe I get some grace while I’m doing. But I gotta do. That is your ordo salutis. But, ya see, it’s not grace if you gotta live a certain way to get it. It is merit. It is a wage. It is earned. You save yourself. It is by some activity of yours. The sacrifice of Jesus just keeps getting smaller and smaller and you just keep getting bigger and bigger. In fact, what you wrote above is worse than legalism, it’s pantheistic karma with a monotheistic figurehead, two ideas you are worshipping. 2 Kings 17:24-33, just for an old time picture of what is going on here (minus the invasion, exile, wild beasts).
One fits your sensibilities, your personal wisdom, the other gives you the theological and sociological leverage to do what you already decided you were gonna do, as long a high degree of selectivity in acknowledging, much less utilizing, scripture is maintained.
2. That’s nice of you to include God in your civic rebeautification program. Put him in the back of a convertible with some local hottie and a bucket of tootsie rolls so he can wave to the nice people that he can’t help.
“To repeat what Dallas Willard once said – grace is opposed to earning, not effort.”
That is one of the most inane 6-of-one-half-dozen-of-the-other cases of doublespeak I have heard in some time. Grace is undeserved, period. The two words you quoted above are both dooo-ing. You are the dooooo-er. Absolute semantic blahbuhdeeblah.
“the things he spoke most passionately about – poverty, hunger, sickness, prisons, broken relationships, violence”
I’m seriously starting to wonder if you have actually read the gospels. When Jesus defines what he came for, what does he say? That Leo Bascaligia stuff you say? Or something a bit more graphic? And even when he does speak against these things, he doesn’t do his best Rodney King imitation. He never ever ever suggests that giving us a flow chart for trying harder and being nicer was why he came.
Do you know how self centered the therapeutic Jesus is? Just us feeling better than we did before, that’s the goal, relief for ME? memememeeeee. In fact, the motivation for such a Jesus is just as self-centered as that which drives people lookin for fire insurance by signing a card, praying a prayer and walking an aisle.
2 Kings 17:24-33, just for an old time picture of what is going on here (minus the invasion, exile, wild beasts)
Nothing new under the sun.
I don’t know if you’ve seen this quote from Niebuhr before but think about having it made into needlepoint and hanging it in your kitchen.
We want a God without wrath
who took a man without sin
into a kingdom without justice
through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross
tag
Look Jason, to me it seems lie you’ve got on these glasses that distort anything outside of your own precise view of faith. (Or at least they cause you to be very suspect of what I am saying.) I can understand – I wore them once myself, but thankfully for only a few years. Perhaps you’ve worn them much longer.
Sin= Is not an action, something that we do other than focus on ourselves instead of God. The ego – the “mememememe” you mentioned. We are all born with this sin nature – it’s the inevitable(?) result of having free will. To return our focus on God is the act of redemption, the turning back, and in this process we learn how to love and live with each other. In this regard our lives are saved from the side effects of sin. Can some of us stay turned away from God? The history books and newspapers would say so.
Grace= God loves all mankind. None are deserving of his love, none are deserving of his forgiveness. God sacrificed himself to show us how he loves us and to show us how to love him and others. Love, surrender, forgiveness, sacrifice, gratitude – those are the keys to redemption, the keys to diminishing our will and supplanting it with God’s. No miraculous overnight changes need be the order.
Salvation= Is not only about what happens to us after death. Jesus came and saved the entire world. There is nothing that we can do to earn it. Period. He did it, we have it. If it helps to see this as God’s legal requirement for the redemption of humanity, then why not? For some they may see it as much more personal, a very brutal and absolute teaching tool. Salvation also addresses our lives on this planet, our communities, our nations – the prophets were often concerned about the civic salvation of God’s people. These ways of looking at salvation are not contradictory they are just more comprehensive.
That being said, the more we become like Christ, the more we focus on him – who is was, what he did, who he is now- the more we gradually become like him. His teachings help us to work towards this. We begin, in various ways and at various levels (for we are all different) to act out our responsibilities in the Kingdom.’ Faith without works is dead’. Is this also double speak? It does not mean that those who do not work are damned. They just forfeit the present joy of serving Christ because much of that joy is found in service to others, in all that we do; butcher, baker, candlestick maker, student and teacher we have the opportunity to serve Christ by following his directions – love, surrender, forgive, sacrifice, service.
Serving Christ’s Kingdom is not a therapeutic exercise – it means serving him through serving others because we love him. My love for him has developed out of gratitude for what he has done for me. Has my love for him also become therapeutic for my soul? Has serving him also become therapeutic?
It sure has. What a great side benefit.
Chris, did you read that before you posted it? I know your in this sparring match, and granted you added the obligatory smiley at the end, but geeze man, that doesn’t sound like you…
I’m not going to jump in, but from a lurkers point of view, I think you both are just speaking from differnt points on the same pendulum… describing the same ’sky’ from the perspective of looking out of two different windows.
Christian,
I have not read all of the comments to your post so this may be redundant.
Is the God you all are discussion the same God? I mean is he omnipresent? All knowing? Loving?
To me if he knows all things, doesn’t make mistakes, and loves us more than we can define, why does he need a sacrifice to reconcile us to him? He knows us. He created us (how he created us is not the debate). He knows we are by nature “mememememe” people and still loves us. What if the concept of hell was/is taken out of context and used by the religiously zealous to not only breed fear but guilt in its tenants. Didn’t God say he didn’t want anyone of his kids to be lost? Shouldn’t God get what he wants?
Still confused with the whole “heaven and hell” concepts…
Hiya preechman7,
cross. there’s a cross in there. If your assessment of human nature and how God views us is right, then the central event in all of God’s word is just a Thomas Kinkaide painting.
“Didn’t God say he didn’t want anyone of his kids to be lost? Shouldn’t God get what he wants”
new and improved context-free.
Big C,
I actually liked much of what you wrote.
Would it be OK if I emailed you?
Absolutely brother. And Buddy is right – that last opening remark of mine – I wrote that at six am and it didn’t come across as intended. I was going to edit but I do a lot of that and well…you guys don’t have the same privilege, at least not on other people’s sites.
Preach, I do lean more towards your perspective here. At the same time I can see Jason’s and Buddy’s. I think that’s the point of Buddy’s pendulum although that’s not quite the analogy I prefer.
Yeah, actually my favorite is LWBUTs cartesian plane.
I also like the image of the building with many windows viewing the sme sky.
yes, hindu varieties of christ philosophy are all the rage.
OK Jason you got me on the context free zinger, but aren’t all these arguments? I mean, I am not a bible scholar, but can’t you make the bible say anything you want it to say? On the cross, I am not sure what I believe about that anymore. There was a time when I based my whole belief system on that one event but was it a divine plan, believed and prophecised (?) over a thousand years, or was Jesus killed for his views? Is Jesus the Jews long awaited messiah or a man so in tune with the divine that he just appeared that way? I am not trying to be difficult but these are the questions I face now.
I believe too, Christian, that for me there has to be balance. When you take a side, using the pendulum illustration, you’re labled an extremist and rightly so in my opinion. Where is the even although not common ground in this arguement?
I’m sorry, preech.
good luck.
Yes – I forgot that one! The multiple windows and one sky analogy. Where did that come from again?
Sorry Jason, no hindu philsophy here…
My point is that people tend to view God/Christ/Holy Spirit from just one (pre-jew-diss);) perspective. They find the need to view God as EITHER full of wrath and vengance OR humble and full of grace. He is EITHER Soverighn King OR Gentle Servant. There are those that recognize that He has attributes of both, but assign some sort of percetange..“Well He is a God of Justice, but well, Jeusus preached Love and He’s really more like that.” Still others seem to think that God went through some sort of catharsis. “Well, God used to be like that back in the OT days, then Jesus came and everything is rosey now.”
My view, Jason, is that, in the same way Jesus was fully God AND fully man, God is 100% a God of wrath and justice and 100% a God of Grace, Love and Forgiveness (as well as 100% numerous other attributes as well). The fact that this is hard for us to comprehendand and may not fit what we desire God to be does not make it less true.
The Pendulum / Cartesian / Window analogies speak to me in that while through our limited perspective we only see God from a specific point (eg. point in the swing of a pendulum, point on a coordinate system, one window in a building) God exists (even in seemingly contradictory perspectives) beyond what any one point can see (eg. the full swing, the coordinate system, the sky out of the window).
Hiya,
“My view, Jason, is that, in the same way Jesus was fully God AND fully man, God is 100% a God of wrath and justice and 100% a God of Grace, Love and Forgiveness”
That is a great example and greatly clarifying. I agree in what you have said. No hindu, indeed!
Actually, not quite good luck yet.
“but can’t you make the bible say anything you want it to say?”
Give me an example.
I think he must mean that if you hold the Bible on it’s side and stick your finger about half way in the pages you can move the two halves up and down like a mouth and create a Bible puppet. Then you can make it say anything you want.
It helps in the interpretation if you glue a couple of those google eyes on the top half…
hahahahaha
Benny Hinn + lamb chop =
This is an extreme example but check out this site.
Again not being difficult, but looking for answers.
Well, I think Preach might mean something like this;
As pertaining to slavery (and other forms of racism such as the Jim Crow laws and apartheid) there were some Christians who claimed that the Bible gave its approval and another group of Christians who claimed Biblical condemntation of it.
There are those who claim scripture is adamant about the prohibition of alcohol while others don’t see it.
Some say that tithing is a necessary part of being a Christian, others see a proscription against any laws.
Some see a support for limited war, others see a need for total pacifism.
Etc. etc. etc.
I would have to agree with the Preach here.
Preeech,
Thanks for that website, that actually was a very helpful example, because they give an example. Nice.
Christian,
Preeech’s example was halpful because it was an example. Your’s is regurgitation sans bible.
Sure, we have all heard that you can get the bible to say anything, but what is usually exculded from the debate is the fact that it’s not the bible they are ususing, it is
one
or
two
verses taken so out of context so as to being the person’s cohesiveness with reality into question.
Just as this web site does.
No opposing arguments are given. No comprehensive picture is even attempted in rebutal. Only a “those guys did it” answer, like yours.
Buddy’s summary of Leviticus is a wonderful gentile commentary on Levitcus, but those who have misused and abused Leviticus should not be expected to be so comprehensive and complete. Just an “our daily racist, hater, bread” type of thing, each verse being reflective of whatever white-hot rod the hater in question has rammed up his rectum on that particular day.
These things can be, and must be addressed systematically, ohhhhh the scaaarrrry word.
Be part of the solution. Figure out why the haters are wrong about what they think the bible says.
I’m being mediated.
That’s figures.
Oh that’s weird, I just lost a post. Not mediated, just an e-fart.
Huh? Oh, you got tagged as spam – don’t know why – sorry.
I just read your de-spammed comment. Having second thoughts about despamming it now
Regurgitation? You asked for examples and I gave you examples. If you want specific examples with names and dates ask for them. I assumed you were already aware of this- it is common knowledge. And yes those guys did it and are still doing it. I think it’s worth mentioning – why do you disregard it?
Talk about cohesiveness – I can’t figure out what you are trying to say. You don’t like the arguments so you say none are given. Yet I have yet to hear much from you beside from what (I think) you hope are very leading questions. Unfortunately they don’t lead anywhere.
It is not too hard to figure out why ‘haters’ are wrong about the bible – do you want to delve into some pop psychology now? Maybe they like being dangled over the fires of hell. More likely they enjoy envisioning others dangling over this fire, as long as they are confident that they are ’saved’. You say it is not the bible they are using but a few verses taken out of context. Excellent! I think that this has been my point all along. I would request that you get to your point, please.
It’s amazing how we can misconstrue such a simple concept.
Yes the God of the old testament is the God of the new testament remember Jesus said I always do my Fathers will and me and my Father are I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
As for the Law Jesus says “for I say unto you, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. “
God is a Holly (Exodus 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by), Righteous and Awesome God who hates Sin. We are saved through Jesus and only by him ”I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”.
And yes there is a Hell that’s Why Jesus Suffered and Died on the Cross to Keep us from it….
Chris have you had a chance to view the DVD “The Gospel of John” they did an incredible job on it.
Hiya all,
Thanks for fighting your censorous instincts. Although you might think through such a wonderous boon more thoroughly, next time. It’s your blog – you can despam if you want to – despam if you want to..
Spamee, that’s funny, I feel a nickname coming on.
I asked for examples of “make the bible say anything you want it to say”. That is not at all what you did. Not so surprisingly
comedic pause
you forgot the bible part of it. Hey! Thank you.
“I think it’s worth mentioning – why do you disregard it?”
hmmm, let’s look back in time to a spam far, far away…….I wrote:
“These things can be, and must be addressed systematically, ohhhhh the scaaarrrry word. Be part of the solution. Figure out why the haters are wrong about what they think the bible says.”
A notable dearth of cohesiveness in your protestations. Did I not actually write that these things need to be dealt with? One first needs to read the words to engage in rhetoric, C..
“do you want to delve into some pop psychology now? Maybe they like being dangled over the fires of hell. More likely they enjoy envisioning others dangling over this fire, as long as they are confident that they are ’saved’.”
This is one of the most contrived, thin air projections of your own neuroses which I have ever read. And that is saying something.
Clue time, C: People are fallen. Get a grip. If you think telling them that they deserve punishment for sins that they have committed will shove them over the edge, then you just need to stop reading the bible altogther, cuz yer gonna go postal, pal.
It is you who, at this time, cradle these satanic errors in the palm of your hand so that you can use them as a “yer not nice” (geez, where have I heard that before) blackjack with which you attempt to smakdown anyone whom you have prejudicially labeled “superfundy!” Probably yer Catholic roots showing.
I have not seen any interest on your part in actually refuting the errors. Just flogging them for your own religious self aggrandizement.
Be part of the solution. Prove that you are interested in proving that God’s word doesn’t say what they say it does.
Shoot the Messenger, indeed.
spammed again, baby.
tell me that’s an error.
Probably a little to short chopped off the One in me and my Father are One.
But really it’s not that complicated of a concept…..
Jason, have you considered decaf?
Gordon, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not extend it. He was t he living personification of the unbroken law. It would seem that he was able to do so by not even being conscious of the letter of the law, or if he was he often disobeyed it.
decaf is for wussies and people on high blood pressure med…ooohhhh that’s me.
Forgive the late arrrival.
BUDDY O if you are still out there ask Jason or Tam for a copy of my ‘2nd Chapter’. Or leave a post on my blog and i’ll send you a copy. if you are quoting my ‘cartesian plane’ then you MUST read it, It puts a lot very clearly into place for me.
J feel free to challenge me on any part of what i wrote there – it could probably do with a spot of honing – or 6? or 12?
Can someone please help me out?? Satan was cast down out of the firmament of Heaven… First stop – EARTH!
What’s below Heaven? Earth!?
Anyone taken a good long look about this planet recently?
Tell me this ain’t Hell?
As for depth – we do understand depth of VISION don’t we??? It is ‘out there’ ( points all about himself) not down there.
The ego inside is all the demons we need to tempt our selves away from God. To hide our Souls from Him for a Time.
J – i knew you were a pussycat really!
meow!
Ok
Jesus was the Messiah/Savior he came to fulfill prophecy of the Messiah. Remember they asked him “Tell us are you the Messiah”.
The problem was they were not interested in being saved from their Sins, let alone having them pointed out.
“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
Jesus did not eliminate the Law he eliminated the burden of the law. Now we want to obey the law because we are a born again “I will give them new hearts I will take their hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh” person we have the indwelling Holy spirit working in our lives. We obey Gods law because we Love the Father like Jesus did and want to please him and yes if we happen to break it we have an advocate with the Father so we can be forgiven.
But Jesus did not eliminate the Law that is how we know what Sin is so
Stealing, Killing, Adulatory, Homosexuality etc. are still all Sins we need stop doing.
When the women caught in the very act of adulatory was brought before Jesus. He didn’t say go and keep committing adulatory he said go and Sin no more.
Sure Gordon, I agree with you. But lying, cheating, hating, insulting, gossiping, vanity, addictions etc. etc. are also sins we need to stop doing. And last time I checked out a church (mine) we can all do a better job. So I think it is prudent in not being too selective of what constitutes ’sinful’ behavior.
What does Paul say about his doing the things that he should not do? As long as he concentrates on obeying the law he is doomed to failure. The key is to focus on Christ and learn to become more like him, our natures changing to wear we begin to obey the law unconscioiusly. Sort of what John Wesley thought of ‘imparted righteousness’
lwbut, I think you have hit a big nail on the head. Whether or not Satan is an actual being (the Jews did not universally believe so) it can be useful to see how he can be a metaphor for our own egos. When Jesus entered into the desert to struggle with Satan could he also had been struggling with his own ego and pride?
Of course if we look at sin as being some ‘thing’ inherited and that Jesus was born without sin, that would mean that he was born without a suffering ego – he was blessed with an entirely healthy one, never having harbored a negative or prideful thought.
Yet why then did he spend 40 days and nights in the desert with Satan?
I Know Chris that’s because we war against the flesh.( Nice concept, think about it)
When the disciples received the Holy Spirit were they instant perfect Jesus followers. It’s a work sometimes a life long work..
That’s why people need to accept Christ so he can begin this work.
Yes it’s a cool passage because it shows us what goes on. When we are saved Satan doesn’t go on vacation..
12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Yep.
No help on hell then ( as in weeeee’re heeeeee-errrrr!)
No doubt in my mind that some on Earth have still further to ‘fall’ or that some are here to give us a helping hand ‘Up’.
Huh?
Am pretty much up to speed on all the rest discussed here.
Two things to address first Satan is very real being remember Job And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Or “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” I am afraid he is a very real being found thru out the bible.
And Jesus struggle with his own pride and ego not so remember
Where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”. The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
Not pride or ego but the Devil trying to tempt him and not succeeding …
OK why did Jesus spend 40 days in the desert and why did Lucifer try and tempt Jesus, Lucifer was a fallen angle who convinced the 1/3 of the angles of heaven to follow him. He didn’t have any success trying to tempt Jesus did he.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
And why would you try and psycho analyze Jesus…..
The one John the Baptist proclaimed with:
There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
The one who John proclaims:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
I would be careful about trying to psycho analyze our Lord and Savoir the one responsible for were we spend Eternity….
The Lord knew perfectly well where Satan came from – He Made him the Brightest of His Heavenly Host and He saw Satan’s fall to Earth. Satan could no more hide from God than we can.
The Devil’s claim he came from walking about the Earth is strong justification for my claim that Hell is here and now as many living today can attest to.
If Our Lord is saying to those on ‘His Left’ i take that to mean He is talking from Heaven and therefore the place of eternal fire and the bottomless pit is below Heaven – first stop – Earth.
Anyone got anything that refutes that with some definiteness and Authority? ( as opposed to merely unclear thinking with Authority?)
When did the thousand years begin and when do we think it will/did end?
No way we can psychoanalyse Christ – we can speculate on ways that the Human Jesus overcame the temptation of Satan though – being half human, born of Mary, and all.
Don’t think Jesus would have any objections to that providing we don’t try to force Him into any mere humanness completely. Not if it gives us more ways we as humans can become more like Him anyway!
Those humans who die here without accepting the Glory of God are doomed to lie in the ground and become as hot matter and dust forever, their spirits return and may be reborn anew in human form to burn again and again in hell so that the spirit, not the man, may be given ‘one more chance’ to accept their destiny.
Every time a new ego is born from the earth to live in the new body and challenge the Godly Spirit within us all.
To All – May your devil lose this challenge this time around. May your Body be perfect.
If God Will it.
One, thing, Love. I think it is a mistake to think of Jesus as being ‘half-human’. He was fully human and pardoxically fully God. Did he realize his divinity before his resurrection? I wonder…why cry out in dispair then upon the cross?
But if he is more than man but instead somehow a ’superman’ being half god- how can we see his suffering as bein equal or more than our own?
Sorry – off track.
Not at all Big C – is your blog and we were discussing the humanity/divinity of Jesus. In part.
I often say things more to have people see their own belief from a differing perspective. Jason gets that, I’m sure and i suspect you are not ‘innocent’ in that regard either.
I have no doubt that Jesus was fully human (certainly before he ‘died’ on the cross at any rate) nor do i doubt he could Rise again and was The Word that was With God. ( great thing sometimes that ‘fuzzy logic’
)
I get both your and Gordon’s points of view on this and other topics.
Paradoxes now you see em – now you don’t – now you see em….
Kind of like three D versus 3 D!???
( apologies to those who don’t get my ‘in’ joke there)
No Jesus describes Hell as a totally different place then the phrase Hell on earth…
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[d]
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[e]
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[f]
Without a doubt Jesus (who is referencing Isaiah here) is describing in horribly picturesque terms the fate of those who go astray. But hell is not the original term used – we know that in this case he is referring to the garbage pit/ burial ground outside of Jerusalem called Gehenna. The worms that turn and do not die – maggots- indicate decay an corruption but an ‘unquenchable’ fire does not mean a fire that burns eternally, only one that cannot be put out – an all consuming fire that burns until it has no fuel to feed it.
I don’t know what he means, but I am not sure that he means there is a place called hell.
Yes but you are wrong Jesus is using this do describe Hell Gehenna was a burial ground were the fire was keep burning all the time. It was a reference to Hell that hit home for the Jews of that time.
I completely agree. And I guess, since we are unfamiliar with Gehenna and would not understand the impact, we have crafted a much more horrible allusion.
Can I point out that your Hand does not ’cause’ you me or anyone else to sin?
Clearly, yet again, Jesus is speaking parable here not literal body maiming ( although my Father once worked with a man who cut his tong, thumb and penis off in a single ’session’ because he read this stuff TOO literally God really spoke to him huh?
He lived to tell the tale, obviously, although with a shortened tongue it was not very clear what the tale he told actually was. I think he helped turn more sinners away from God than towards him…
“A God who could make you do THAT??? No, thank you!” kind of thing!
Back to my point – if this was not meant to be read LITERALLY , but figuratively, then figure out what he meant by ‘hell’ and the worm that never dies.
You can if you want to and the True Lord guide you.
Gordon I know you have God in you somewhere and you are doing what you in your earthly form believe to be the Best but please – don’t suggest we must chop off limbs or pluck out eyes in order to get into heaven!
Our bodies sin because of our earth centred minds not because the body’s cells are ‘evil’ – at least not the way such a reading of the Bible and Matthew can be read by some who think not clearly nor with wisdom read it.
Ok Jesus is pointing out the fact that hell is such a horrific place that it would be better to loose something to prevent you from sinning than to be cast into Hell.
Ok Jesus is pointing out the fact that Hell is such a horrific place that it would be better to loose something to prevent you from sinning than to be cast into Hell.
You seem to be really hung up on Hell and how it doesn’t’ exist when Jesus spoke about it all the time.
You haven’t a clue what you are trying to do, God takes Hell very seriously that’s why Jesus bore the cross an excruciating death so that we wouldn’t have to go there, you are trying to void that.
“God takes Hell very seriously that’s why Jesus bore the cross an excruciating death so that we wouldn’t have to go there, you are trying to void that”
Gordon, I am not trying to say that Jesus’ crucifixion was not the most important sacrifice ever made nor that the results of ignoring this sacrifice is trivial. To turn away from God is the most awful, most despairing thing anyone can do. You are right, Jesus (as well as the prophets and the writers of the widom books) underlines this point over and over.
I just do not believe in a ‘place’ called hell, created by God, for the never ending punishment of his children.
Let’s go back to the scriptures – they don’t even use the word Hell. There is a choice of words that have been translated into hell – sheol (or the grave), and Gehenna (the Jerusalem garbage dump). The word ‘hell’ was adopted from Germanic mythology.
So – what non-metaphorical scriptures do you see a basis for an actual place of torment called Hell?
Your confused because God prepared Hell for the Devil and his angles Jesus spoke of it and so did the disciples John spoke of it in Revelation Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire….
Green did a really good job on the topic..here is a clip on the verse I just quoted….
Read carefully the following words – words that fell from the tender lips and came from the tender heart of the Lamb of God. The hottest sermon on hell that you will ever read is here – there are more blazes and flames in these few verses than in any passage of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and Jesus is the preacher: “If thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: There their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, that having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).
I have quoted from God’s Word a very understandable sermon on hell. Anyone who wants to know and accept the truth can clearly see in these words what Jesus thought and taught about hell. I would like to outline these verses for you, break them down, so that we can see clearly exactly what they contain:
In verse 43, Jesus preaches that if a person cannot serve God with two hands, then it is much better to cut off one of them, be a cripple and serve God with one hand, rather than have two good hands, serve the devil and go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
According to this verse, Jesus preached hell as a place where there is fire. Maybe someone is saying, “Mr. Greene, that is not really fire.” God have mercy on such stupid, uncalled-for ignorance! We read about the streets of gold – “Oh, yes, THAT is gold!” We read about the gates of pearl – “Oh, yes, they are PEARLS all right – real pearls.”) We read about hell fire – and “that is not FIRE.” How calloused can a heart become? Dear friend, do not let any one tell you that is not “fire.” If the word “f-i-r-e” is a symbol, then just keep in mind that the real product is worse than the symbol! In other words, if this is not fire as we know fire, whatever it is it is HOTTER than our fire. (Fire is the only word Jesus could use that we could understand.) I believe Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said. He knew what He said, and He said what He knew because, you see, He was present when God Almighty created hell. Hell is a place of fire … it makes no difference what your preacher, your religion, or your book of doctrine says! If you cannot serve God with two hands, you would be better off with one hand, or with NO hands, than to have hands, serve the devil, and be lost in hell, “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 45, Jesus announces His second point: “If thy foot offend thee, cut it off.” If Jesus stood on my platform and preached to a group of people in the twentieth century, He would say something like this: “Ladies and men, if you cannot walk for Jesus, if your feet carry you to the places of the devil; if you are using your feet to serve sin, if you cannot serve God with two feet – then go out to the chopping block and let somebody take an axe and cut off one of them! It would be far better for you to go through life with one foot, than to have two feet and serve the devil, ending up in hell in a fire that never shall be quenched!” Does Jesus need to say anything two times to make it so? John 3:16 is only in the Bible one time, but we BELIEVE John 3:16. Oh, yes “God is love;” we believe that. God so loved the loved the world – yes, we believe that! But it is mighty hard for some people to believe that it is better to chop off a foot and go to Heaven, than it is to have two feet, go to hell, and drop into a lake of fire that burns with brimstone. They want to make something else out of the fire. They want to believe that God is love, that Jesus has gone to prepare a beautiful place with golden streets and gates of pure pearls – but hell? No! That just could not be fire! They refuse to accept the fact that God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
My friend, if you are reading these lines and you deny hell fire, I will perhaps never be able to convince you, ministers may never be able to convince you, the Word of God may not convince you – but it will take only three seconds of hell fire to make you believe! It will be too late then – entirely too late: I beg you to believe now! No, you cannot be saved and deny the Bible. You must believe that Jesus is the Christ and if you believe that He is the Christ, you believe He is One who “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). If there is no fire in hell, Jesus lied because He said “A man that calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.” He said, “It is better to lose your hand than to be cast into hell fire; and it is better to lose your foot than to be cast into hell fire.” So, if there is not fire in hell, then Jesus lied; and if He lied about hell, then He might have lied about the cross and we have no hope, no salvation. We might just as well eat, drink and be merry – tomorrow we may die! Let me repeat: – You may never believe this side of the grave, but YOU WILL BELIEVE ON THE OTHER SIDE; “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 47, Jesus announced His third point. (Almost every sermon Jesus preached was a three-point sermon; study them.) “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
I personally had much rather lose one of my hands than to lose one of my feet; I had rather have two feet than to have two hands. It would be far easier to have one hand, because a person with one hand can do almost anything a person with two hands can do; but if we lose a foot, that is a very painful, handicapping experience.
Jesus first mentions, losing the hand; He then moves from the hand to the foot – to lose a foot is bad; but third, to lose an eye is worse. Eyes are among the most important members of our body, and I would hate to lose one of my eyes.
God bless the dear, precious blind friends who listen to my programs; there are hundreds of them across the country. One day they will see Jesus, if they are saved, and they will have two good eyes just like His perfect eyes.
In essence, Jesus said “If you cannot look at the right things, if your eyes do not lead you to the right places, if you cannot use your eyes to glorify God – then the thing to do is pluck one of them out! You had better have one eye and go to Heaven, than have two eyes and go to hell; because hell is a place where the fire is never quenched.”
What about your eyes? Are you using them to glorify God, or are you using them to serve the devil? May God help you, if you are lost, to say this moment: “Lord, here are my heart, my hands, my feet, my eyes; save me. Save the members of my body, and help me whether I eat, drink, or whatsoever I do to do it all to the glory of God. When I walk; when I work; when I look-help me to do it to the glory of God!”
If you cannot do that, you would be better off without any feet, without any hands, without any eyes. It would be much better to be severely handicapped and serve God, than to have a good, sound, perfect body and go to hell “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
I Know it’s like you don’t want to scare people about Hell, but they should be fearful of it because it is a real place and they are going to have to face that fact.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And yes Hell is a real place it was prepared for the Devil and his angles.. Spoken of by Jesus and his disciples, John I saw death and Hell cast into the lake of fire..
I Quoted Green a while back here is a clip on the verse I just quoted you about the worm dieth not.
Read carefully the following words – words that fell from the tender lips and came from the tender heart of the Lamb of God. The hottest sermon on hell that you will ever read is here – there are more blazes and flames in these few verses than in any passage of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and Jesus is the preacher: “If thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: There their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, that having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).
I have quoted from God’s Word a very understandable sermon on hell. Anyone who wants to know and accept the truth can clearly see in these words what Jesus thought and taught about hell. I would like to outline these verses for you, break them down, so that we can see clearly exactly what they contain:
In verse 43, Jesus preaches that if a person cannot serve God with two hands, then it is much better to cut off one of them, be a cripple and serve God with one hand, rather than have two good hands, serve the devil and go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
According to this verse, Jesus preached hell as a place where there is fire. Maybe someone is saying, “Mr. Greene, that is not really fire.” God have mercy on such stupid, uncalled-for ignorance! We read about the streets of gold – “Oh, yes, THAT is gold!” We read about the gates of pearl – “Oh, yes, they are PEARLS all right – real pearls.”) We read about hell fire – and “that is not FIRE.” How calloused can a heart become? Dear friend, do not let any one tell you that is not “fire.” If the word “f-i-r-e” is a symbol, then just keep in mind that the real product is worse than the symbol! In other words, if this is not fire as we know fire, whatever it is it is HOTTER than our fire. (Fire is the only word Jesus could use that we could understand.) I believe Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said. He knew what He said, and He said what He knew because, you see, He was present when God Almighty created hell. Hell is a place of fire … it makes no difference what your preacher, your religion, or your book of doctrine says! If you cannot serve God with two hands, you would be better off with one hand, or with NO hands, than to have hands, serve the devil, and be lost in hell, “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 45, Jesus announces His second point: “If thy foot offend thee, cut it off.” If Jesus stood on my platform and preached to a group of people in the twentieth century, He would say something like this: “Ladies and men, if you cannot walk for Jesus, if your feet carry you to the places of the devil; if you are using your feet to serve sin, if you cannot serve God with two feet – then go out to the chopping block and let somebody take an axe and cut off one of them! It would be far better for you to go through life with one foot, than to have two feet and serve the devil, ending up in hell in a fire that never shall be quenched!” Does Jesus need to say anything two times to make it so? John 3:16 is only in the Bible one time, but we BELIEVE John 3:16. Oh, yes “God is love;” we believe that. God so loved the loved the world – yes, we believe that! But it is mighty hard for some people to believe that it is better to chop off a foot and go to Heaven, than it is to have two feet, go to hell, and drop into a lake of fire that burns with brimstone. They want to make something else out of the fire. They want to believe that God is love, that Jesus has gone to prepare a beautiful place with golden streets and gates of pure pearls – but hell? No! That just could not be fire! They refuse to accept the fact that God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
My friend, if you are reading these lines and you deny hell fire, I will perhaps never be able to convince you, ministers may never be able to convince you, the Word of God may not convince you – but it will take only three seconds of hell fire to make you believe! It will be too late then – entirely too late: I beg you to believe now! No, you cannot be saved and deny the Bible. You must believe that Jesus is the Christ and if you believe that He is the Christ, you believe He is One who “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). If there is no fire in hell, Jesus lied because He said “A man that calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.” He said, “It is better to lose your hand than to be cast into hell fire; and it is better to lose your foot than to be cast into hell fire.” So, if there is not fire in hell, then Jesus lied; and if He lied about hell, then He might have lied about the cross and we have no hope, no salvation. We might just as well eat, drink and be merry – tomorrow we may die! Let me repeat: – You may never believe this side of the grave, but YOU WILL BELIEVE ON THE OTHER SIDE; “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 47, Jesus announced His third point. (Almost every sermon Jesus preached was a three-point sermon; study them.) “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
I personally had much rather lose one of my hands than to lose one of my feet; I had rather have two feet than to have two hands. It would be far easier to have one hand, because a person with one hand can do almost anything a person with two hands can do; but if we lose a foot, that is a very painful, handicapping experience.
Jesus first mentions, losing the hand; He then moves from the hand to the foot – to lose a foot is bad; but third, to lose an eye is worse. Eyes are among the most important members of our body, and I would hate to lose one of my eyes.
God bless the dear, precious blind friends who listen to my programs; there are hundreds of them across the country. One day they will see Jesus, if they are saved, and they will have two good eyes just like His perfect eyes.
In essence, Jesus said “If you cannot look at the right things, if your eyes do not lead you to the right places, if you cannot use your eyes to glorify God – then the thing to do is pluck one of them out! You had better have one eye and go to Heaven, than have two eyes and go to hell; because hell is a place where the fire is never quenched.”
What about your eyes? Are you using them to glorify God, or are you using them to serve the devil? May God help you, if you are lost, to say this moment: “Lord, here are my heart, my hands, my feet, my eyes; save me. Save the members of my body, and help me whether I eat, drink, or whatsoever I do to do it all to the glory of God. When I walk; when I work; when I look-help me to do it to the glory of God!”
If you cannot do that, you would be better off without any feet, without any hands, without any eyes. It would be much better to be severely handicapped and serve God, than to have a good, sound, perfect body and go to hell “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
I know that you don’t want to scare people Hell but it is a real place they are just going to have to face the fact.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It has nothing to do with sheol when is the last time you heard of the grave described as fire and brimestone or a place were the worm dieth not. He is describing Hell…..
Here is a couple of excerpts from Green about the verse I just quoted…
Chriss I Here you go I quoted the whole message before here is the part concerning the Hell and the worm dieth not…..
Read carefully the following words – words that fell from the tender lips and came from the tender heart of the Lamb of God. The hottest sermon on hell that you will ever read is here – there are more blazes and flames in these few verses than in any passage of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and Jesus is the preacher: “If thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: There their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, that having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).
I have quoted from God’s Word a very understandable sermon on hell. Anyone who wants to know and accept the truth can clearly see in these words what Jesus thought and taught about hell. I would like to outline these verses for you, break them down, so that we can see clearly exactly what they contain:
In verse 43, Jesus preaches that if a person cannot serve God with two hands, then it is much better to cut off one of them, be a cripple and serve God with one hand, rather than have two good hands, serve the devil and go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
According to this verse, Jesus preached hell as a place where there is fire. Maybe someone is saying, “Mr. Greene, that is not really fire.” God have mercy on such stupid, uncalled-for ignorance! We read about the streets of gold – “Oh, yes, THAT is gold!” We read about the gates of pearl – “Oh, yes, they are PEARLS all right – real pearls.”) We read about hell fire – and “that is not FIRE.” How calloused can a heart become? Dear friend, do not let any one tell you that is not “fire.” If the word “f-i-r-e” is a symbol, then just keep in mind that the real product is worse than the symbol! In other words, if this is not fire as we know fire, whatever it is it is HOTTER than our fire. (Fire is the only word Jesus could use that we could understand.) I believe Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said. He knew what He said, and He said what He knew because, you see, He was present when God Almighty created hell. Hell is a place of fire … it makes no difference what your preacher, your religion, or your book of doctrine says! If you cannot serve God with two hands, you would be better off with one hand, or with NO hands, than to have hands, serve the devil, and be lost in hell, “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
and here is the rest Greens quote of it….
In verse 45, Jesus announces His second point: “If thy foot offend thee, cut it off.” If Jesus stood on my platform and preached to a group of people in the twentieth century, He would say something like this: “Ladies and men, if you cannot walk for Jesus, if your feet carry you to the places of the devil; if you are using your feet to serve sin, if you cannot serve God with two feet – then go out to the chopping block and let somebody take an axe and cut off one of them! It would be far better for you to go through life with one foot, than to have two feet and serve the devil, ending up in hell in a fire that never shall be quenched!” Does Jesus need to say anything two times to make it so? John 3:16 is only in the Bible one time, but we BELIEVE John 3:16. Oh, yes “God is love;” we believe that. God so loved the loved the world – yes, we believe that! But it is mighty hard for some people to believe that it is better to chop off a foot and go to Heaven, than it is to have two feet, go to hell, and drop into a lake of fire that burns with brimstone. They want to make something else out of the fire. They want to believe that God is love, that Jesus has gone to prepare a beautiful place with golden streets and gates of pure pearls – but hell? No! That just could not be fire! They refuse to accept the fact that God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
My friend, if you are reading these lines and you deny hell fire, I will perhaps never be able to convince you, ministers may never be able to convince you, the Word of God may not convince you – but it will take only three seconds of hell fire to make you believe! It will be too late then – entirely too late: I beg you to believe now! No, you cannot be saved and deny the Bible. You must believe that Jesus is the Christ and if you believe that He is the Christ, you believe He is One who “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). If there is no fire in hell, Jesus lied because He said “A man that calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.” He said, “It is better to lose your hand than to be cast into hell fire; and it is better to lose your foot than to be cast into hell fire.” So, if there is not fire in hell, then Jesus lied; and if He lied about hell, then He might have lied about the cross and we have no hope, no salvation. We might just as well eat, drink and be merry – tomorrow we may die! Let me repeat: – You may never believe this side of the grave, but YOU WILL BELIEVE ON THE OTHER SIDE; “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
In verse 47, Jesus announced His third point. (Almost every sermon Jesus preached was a three-point sermon; study them.) “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
I personally had much rather lose one of my hands than to lose one of my feet; I had rather have two feet than to have two hands. It would be far easier to have one hand, because a person with one hand can do almost anything a person with two hands can do; but if we lose a foot, that is a very painful, handicapping experience.
Jesus first mentions, losing the hand; He then moves from the hand to the foot – to lose a foot is bad; but third, to lose an eye is worse. Eyes are among the most important members of our body, and I would hate to lose one of my eyes.
God bless the dear, precious blind friends who listen to my programs; there are hundreds of them across the country. One day they will see Jesus, if they are saved, and they will have two good eyes just like His perfect eyes.
In essence, Jesus said “If you cannot look at the right things, if your eyes do not lead you to the right places, if you cannot use your eyes to glorify God – then the thing to do is pluck one of them out! You had better have one eye and go to Heaven, than have two eyes and go to hell; because hell is a place where the fire is never quenched.”
What about your eyes? Are you using them to glorify God, or are you using them to serve the devil? May God help you, if you are lost, to say this moment: “Lord, here are my heart, my hands, my feet, my eyes; save me. Save the members of my body, and help me whether I eat, drink, or whatsoever I do to do it all to the glory of God. When I walk; when I work; when I look-help me to do it to the glory of God!”
If you cannot do that, you would be better off without any feet, without any hands, without any eyes. It would be much better to be severely handicapped and serve God, than to have a good, sound, perfect body and go to hell “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
He continues on to descrbe the foot reference..
In verse 45, Jesus announces His second point: “If thy foot offend thee, cut it off.” If Jesus stood on my platform and preached to a group of people in the twentieth century, He would say something like this: “Ladies and men, if you cannot walk for Jesus, if your feet carry you to the places of the devil; if you are using your feet to serve sin, if you cannot serve God with two feet – then go out to the chopping block and let somebody take an axe and cut off one of them! It would be far better for you to go through life with one foot, than to have two feet and serve the devil, ending up in hell in a fire that never shall be quenched!” Does Jesus need to say anything two times to make it so? John 3:16 is only in the Bible one time, but we BELIEVE John 3:16. Oh, yes “God is love;” we believe that. God so loved the loved the world – yes, we believe that! But it is mighty hard for some people to believe that it is better to chop off a foot and go to Heaven, than it is to have two feet, go to hell, and drop into a lake of fire that burns with brimstone. They want to make something else out of the fire. They want to believe that God is love, that Jesus has gone to prepare a beautiful place with golden streets and gates of pure pearls – but hell? No! That just could not be fire! They refuse to accept the fact that God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
My friend, if you are reading these lines and you deny hell fire, I will perhaps never be able to convince you, ministers may never be able to convince you, the Word of God may not convince you – but it will take only three seconds of hell fire to make you believe! It will be too late then – entirely too late: I beg you to believe now! No, you cannot be saved and deny the Bible. You must believe that Jesus is the Christ and if you believe that He is the Christ, you believe He is One who “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). If there is no fire in hell, Jesus lied because He said “A man that calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.” He said, “It is better to lose your hand than to be cast into hell fire; and it is better to lose your foot than to be cast into hell fire.” So, if there is not fire in hell, then Jesus lied; and if He lied about hell, then He might have lied about the cross and we have no hope, no salvation. We might just as well eat, drink and be merry – tomorrow we may die! Let me repeat: – You may never believe this side of the grave, but YOU WILL BELIEVE ON THE OTHER SIDE; “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
And he concludes with
In verse 47, Jesus announced His third point. (Almost every sermon Jesus preached was a three-point sermon; study them.) “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
I personally had much rather lose one of my hands than to lose one of my feet; I had rather have two feet than to have two hands. It would be far easier to have one hand, because a person with one hand can do almost anything a person with two hands can do; but if we lose a foot, that is a very painful, handicapping experience.
Jesus first mentions, losing the hand; He then moves from the hand to the foot – to lose a foot is bad; but third, to lose an eye is worse. Eyes are among the most important members of our body, and I would hate to lose one of my eyes.
God bless the dear, precious blind friends who listen to my programs; there are hundreds of them across the country. One day they will see Jesus, if they are saved, and they will have two good eyes just like His perfect eyes.
In essence, Jesus said “If you cannot look at the right things, if your eyes do not lead you to the right places, if you cannot use your eyes to glorify God – then the thing to do is pluck one of them out! You had better have one eye and go to Heaven, than have two eyes and go to hell; because hell is a place where the fire is never quenched.”
What about your eyes? Are you using them to glorify God, or are you using them to serve the devil? May God help you, if you are lost, to say this moment: “Lord, here are my heart, my hands, my feet, my eyes; save me. Save the members of my body, and help me whether I eat, drink, or whatsoever I do to do it all to the glory of God. When I walk; when I work; when I look-help me to do it to the glory of God!”
If you cannot do that, you would be better off without any feet, without any hands, without any eyes. It would be much better to be severely handicapped and serve God, than to have a good, sound, perfect body and go to hell “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Well, can we agree that, no matter what it actually is, it is something to be avoided at all costs? Eternal fires, eternal seperation from God with longing and despair or total annhilation – none of these possibilities is very appealing. So we must stay focused on Christ and his Gospel.
I went back to the bible and looked up the times that Jesus refers to hell or damnation. It seems to me that, whether it is metaphorical or a real place, that the people who he warning are those who are engaged in either not serving or are actually taking advantage of others.
So, if there is a hell, it would seem that Jesus thinks the best way to avoid it is to serve others, as opposed to the modern doctrine that emphasizes an acceptance of justification or atonement or predestination.
Chriss, with all arguments aside the message is simple. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Quick question again, have you seen the dvd “The Gospel of John” it’s excellent…..
Chriss(sic), with all arguments aside the message is simple. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
AMEN! to that.
Gordon – TRUST me – you have no IDEA just what i do or do not know! – I am NOT the one with the Hell ‘fixation’ here!!! If that comment of yours was not directed directly ‘at’ me, then i withdraw mine.
I merely tried to show that it is a BIG mistake to ONLY take things as you literally understand them on first (and often many many multiple such) ‘readings’.. I hope you read scripture a, dare i say, ‘hell’ of a lot better than you read ‘meaning’ into my words?
The word of God can be read many ways so as to reveal Truth to all. Sadly, mortal man is fallible and understands not ALL he reads, leading him to commit error/sin.
Hey! – if we’re human, we all do it at one time or another – lets just not make it a habit?
.
Jesus IS The Way! How well do we THINK we know Jesus? if we only have one (even divinely inspired) source of knowing OF Him we can often be inclined to be a little ‘one-eyed’ ( see my ‘picture’/image folks) in the way we end up believing Him to actually ‘be’.
Seeing Him in your Heart as well as in your mind can add ‘two dimensions’ – Ever noticed how we have THREE dimensions in space?… and then there is ‘time’…. and where/when will it ever ‘end’?
Peace – and love.
Yes Fixated with the Lake of Fire because we DO NOT want anybody there…..
Just like God the Father (remember Jesus said I always do my Fathers will), Jesus and the Disciples..
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:
OK, in that scripture you just quoted, who was he saying this to? I mean, who were the ‘goats’ supposed to represent?
And importantly – where is the One who speaks speaking FROM at the time?-All ‘Things’ are relative to Him!
Hmm. I don’t know about it being more important but it is worth contemplating. Jesus is not leaving much open for speculation here. Either you have a heart that breaks for others or you do not.
Lesson number ONE from the War On Error: never read MORE than what is written – it often leads you to commit error.
I never said ‘more’ important i said importantly – not even wrote ‘As important ‘- just ‘importent’.
See how easy it can be to be led astray if your mind ain’t fully ‘on the job’ 24/7′?
Practice makes progress now!
My heart is breaking. (open)
love
Touche’.
Your Humble servant ever at your serviice should you need that sharpening ‘touche’ up.
Love
this is all so toucheing
Ah, so the rumors of your demise were exaggerated after all. I knew you were too full of piss and vinegar to lie down for too long. Welcome back, but please, don’t go soft on us.
BTW – have you found those keys yet?
I am a little bloated.
Keys…please for to splain
LWBUT,
“my Father once worked with a man who cut his tong, thumb and penis off in a single ’session’ because he read this stuff TOO literally God really spoke to him huh?”
A pastor at a church back in da homeland (MN) knew of a person who had emasculated himself in the same error. Nobody told this guy about hyperbole within Jewish literature. He said, “but he still has a problem with lust. now he’s got another problem”
Or St. Benedict jumping in the briar. not good.
You know that one of the big reasons for early monastic behavior asceticism was the fact that Jerome, in translating the Vulgate from Greek to Latin, translated one word (I’m sorry I can’t remember which one) in which there was an exhortation to repentance and he translated it as an active instead of a middle voice? Hence “penance” instead of “Repentance”. That error metastasized to the point which we “celebrated” last week (a necessary schism is not a good reason for a celebration, I think).
Doctrine is important, and it has to be taken as written within its’ literary context. A thousand year (and still continuing) testament to just getting the voice wrong in one word.
Just so as to assure you that, though, bloated, and sitting at a desk WAYWAY too much, not going soft. Your concern is gratefully noted.
Sheesh!(c)
You’re picture – you look like me when I can’t find my keys – ” I know that there here somewhere” – of course they are usually in my pocket.
Are those stories really true? The ones about the mutilation. I have never heard that. My God, that is horrible.
Willard suggests that when Jesus talks about doing these things in order to avoid hell he is actually commenting on the futility of trying to earn our way into God’s good graces, that if you persist in trying to obey the law on your own by taking the radical course of removing your offending body parts that you may very well be rolling into heaven, a blind torso with no appendages.
hahaha keys…
wallet?…..
That’s possible because of the Jewish view that salvation and eternal life was in bodily resurrection only. I actually am right now in the middle of Exegesis of Matthew, translating the whole thing and some of the notes on it are as follows
-Numerous references in Judaica to cutting off something as an exaggerated statement of the importance of Morality (Betz, Sermon on the Mt)
-The word usually translated “lust” is not necessarily so, it is a morally neuteral word for desire, but must have resulted in some sort of false worship or idolatry in order to warrant the hyperbole.
-the use of skandalizw, or the verb for “I cause to stumble” is nearly universally used as a predicate to judgment. What is additionally interesting about that word is that it carries the idea of a trap which the causer sets for another or in this situation himself, in that, if you stumble, you have fallen into the trap which you have set for yourself, and are deserving of judgment.
-RT France in his very recent commentary in the New International Commentary on the New Testament series sees the language as saying, “any loss, however painful, is preferable to the total lostness of geeena” while still affiirmin the Jewish literary device of hyperbole in the mutilation.
This is all very fun for me even though I am not sleeping much.
My Story is true Chris – i shook hands with dad’s workmate – Old OneThumb! (serious)
No Industiral acciddent either – He read Matthew and did what it told him at the time I don’t believe he was under the influence of the normal mind-bending drugs – just wanted to ‘please the Lord’ and make sure he went to heaven.
Cutting things off… where have i heard THAT lately??
Tam? A Little help?
Don’t agree with Willard although i am sure he has his reasons and of course, like me, he may just be a little misunderstood at times.
My perception or take is that as we see with our ‘earthly eyes’ or grasp with our ‘earthly hands’ or walk ‘away’ with our ‘earthly feet’ it would be much better for us to ‘cut them off ‘ (metaphorically speaking) than to allow those earthly things as we may desire for to lead us away from desiring to walk pure in Heaven with a clear Eye and two hands praying to the Almighty.
it is the ’sensory’ ego that leads us away from God and this must be ‘cut up’ and burned to hell – not the earthly body – that just rots eventually. We take our Complete, Perfect Spiritual Bodies with us to heaven – this earthly one is useful only here – on earth.
Isn’t that obvious by now?
or maybe i’m wrong??
love
Yah they’re true.
There’s another guy of the medieval era (can’t remember his name, not very interested in his variety of theology) who stuck his hands in a fire, and held them there, thinking “Hell is hotter than this.’
It is notably before this sad point at which I would agree with your take on the method and perspective on teaching the doctrine of Hell.
The abundant life, indeed.
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the Righteous to eternal life.”
Remember Jesus said “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the Righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven”.
So if you read the last verse he tells you who they represent….
As far as cutting off body parts simple put Jesus is stating how Horrific Hell is going to be and that you don’t want to go there. Jesus Said Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
There are other verses like
And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Because we seem to quickly forget the verse that Jesus used when tempted by satan to cast himself off the tower. Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You SHALL NOT tempt the LORD your God.’
But that still doesn’t change the Fact that Jesus said he came to save us from the Lake of Fire..
That’s why he died such a horrific Death……
And as far as God just being a God of Love yes he Loves but he also gets Angry and punishes Unrighteousness..
Very interesting post. We have to wade through man’s traditions, doctrines, and assumptions to understand the Bible.
Studying Scripture from our Western/ American/ Greek view is like looking for gold in a dark mine with a dim pen light–you can see enough to stumble around but you need more light to see clearly. A good grasp of the ancient Hebraic customs and terminology would allow you to reexamine Scripture in this powerful flood light, exposing intricate details and treasures.
Right. And I don’t have the expertise to do that so I rely upon the help of others. The problem I run up against is that there is rarely a consensus of opinion among the Biblical scholars. What is your recommendation in this regard?
BTW, thanks for coming by Robin. Cool site you have.
Hell has been romantically exagerated. What is not exagerated is God’s wrath and the unbeleiver’s final destination after judgement, with is the lake of fire. That’s eternal.
It really surprises me how many opinions there are on hell. It’s the same lack of understanding that confuses the soul and spirit. Read the word, study, be approved and pray.
Oh, and stop wasting your time listening to people who don’t know the spirit.
Thanks, steve. Hell certainly has been exaggerated. But the lake of fire – what do you think that means?
Do you have some sort of sure fire (no pun intended) means of identifying these spirit led folks?
This is all disturbing to me. I’m with Buddy who said “I’m not closing any doors”. We must stay open to our own discovery . As far as truth “if you can say it, it isn’t”" Truth comes from within. Once you have the “within” nothing can touch you or disturb you again. And you will realize heaven is here on earth. If you don’t get that, you continue to create your own suffereng and your “hell” is right here in front of you. Jesus understood that, and all this “intellecutualizing” (which is actually the lowest form of mind) is a delusion.
Welcome, Mary. I’m curious; what part of this conversation do you find disturbing? (I am disturbed by bits of it myself.)
I agree with your ideas of heaven and hell being right here on earth. I think scriptures supports that, certainly there is ample evidence available today. But I don’t think that’s all there is for us to discover, here in this material realm. I think it is possible to articulate truth, there are some examples of this. “Do unto others….” is elementary to true happiness (heaven). But that expression alone doesn’t tell the whole ‘truth’.
Thanks for joining in.
Greetings from Queensland Australia.I would like to email you a short script on why do we preach hell fire and brimstone, when it is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures- sincerely Tom Varney.